What's a good way to learn to improvise?

[Adam Sweet]

I think a good way to teach improvisation is to start with the notes of the major triad (and the octave) and then add the passing notes: 1,3,5,8; plus 2,4

Another way to start people out is to use a "lick" like the Flatt Run, for example, and show them how it can be used over a 4/4 chord progression - then to challenge them on fleshing it out. I make it a rule they can't write anything down, they have to try something new each time, and they have to start on a different note each time...that forces them to try different things and learn by doing.

I think improvisation is the hardest thing to teach, and the easiest thing to learn

[Mandobart]

I'm not a teacher. That said, my experience has been that as my understanding of an instrument grows, my ability to improvise on it improves. Learning the keys and scales, and knowing for example you have two sharps in the key of D, one in G, none in C, etc. helps me from playing the "wrong" notes on a lead. If you know your keys, and basic chords for each, then you can play notes out of the chords to improvise. By far, the best three ways I've found to learn to improvise is to play with others, play with others, and play with others.

[paulspafford]

Like Mandobart, I'm not a teacher. I don't even consider myself a good player. However, I've been thinking a lot about my process as I slowly get better on the mandolin. I started up a blog a couple months ago to write about it:
www.mandolinpaul.com

[John McGann]

1. Don't worry about scales yet. Learn tunes- a lot of them, and different versions of the same tunes. Do this to get to know how melodies move in whatever idiom you are working.

Improvisation without a stylistic basis beyond a "paint-by-the-numbers approach", whether the pentatonic approach or scale approach, tends to make every player sound more or less the same. I have heard thousands (yes, I am logging some miles!) of students improvise without the foundation of actual repertoire of memorized tunes, and interestingly, content-wise: generic noodling.

My friend Matt Glaser says you don't really play "in a style" unless you know (memorized) 100 tunes in that style.

Obviously, Bluegrass (which has many sub-styles) is different from swing (which has many sub-styles). Don't be afraid to focus on one player in one 'bag' for awhile, to get some roots. Learn from non-mandolinists too; fiddle music is a natural on the mandolin. Memorize!

2. Learn other's improvised solos, play along with recordings, do it by ear. Memorize!

3. Learn about chords- what they are, how they are different from each other, which ones "go together" in a key; how scale notes sound against them; how 'non-scale' notes sound against them. Learn the major scale and see how the tunes you know adhere and deviate from it. Learn what modes are. Be sure you can really hear any theory concepts you learn. Memorize!

4. Compose melodic variations on the tunes you know. Sometimes a single note can change the personality of a tune or phrase. Memorize them!

5. Compose new melodies on existing chord changes. Memorize them!

6. Make up a chord progression (or take an existing one). Isolate just the chord tones and play just quarter notes, connecting them. You can't play any "wrong notes" if the notes are chord tones- foolproof safe notes. Juggle them in various orders; play patterns, etc. These are the 2 x 4's that can frame your melodic structures.

7. Try to "tell a story" while improvising via "call and response"; strive for a compositional approach where it's not random lick pastiche, but a sense of one phrase following another with a sense of inevitability. Many melodies use repetition and specific form; for example, Blackberry Blossom's A part could be seen as and abac grouping of phrases. It's good to keep those forms in mind...

8. If playing traditional American styles, check out the Texas fiddle traditions for eloquent and well thought out "melodic variation" controlled improvisation, where the tune/melody itself is played in a variety of ways, and the improvisation is rarely "new melodies based on the chord changes", but genius extensions of the original melody. It is a fantastic art form and a musical approach that is miles away from 'random lick generation' that can plague players who 'play licks based on the chords', rather than creating lines that are endemic to each tunes (and keeps the solo on tune #3 in G from sounding exactly like the solo on tune #4 in G!)

The above is a lifelong pursuit and will not give instant gratification (sigh).

AND/OR

Noodle around and have fun. Life is short enough!

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Great advice, John. Each item in the list can keep you occupied for years and years.

Cheers
Mark R-T

[EarlG]

Wow, John, thanks. What a value filled post. That would be a great answer for folks that feel like they hit a wall or don't know what to work on as well as folks trying to learn to improvise. Thanks.

[Don Stiernberg]

John's response is as usual very thorough and thoughtful. The idea that it's a lifelong pursuit might be the most important. Add to that it should be fun and is very rewarding in the realm of connecting you to the music and other people in a personal way, as opposed to "generic noodling" or "running somebody else's stuff"..

I once asked a saxophone player I really admire what his approach was...scales, chords, modes? He said "You have to know everything!"

I wanted to offer a couple of "concrete" things to try. These have met with good response from students and at workshops.

Improvisation is a two part process. The choice of note or pitch is one. The rhythm the note is stated in is another. One can learn all his modes and alterations quite well, but if they are presented in rhythms that are willy-nilly or all over the place, the resulting solo can seem un-musical. You notice John suggests playing all quarter notes at first. I suggest eighth notes to my students as that is the common denominator for stylistic soling in the genres that all mandolin players love. Also, many players aren't prepared to keep the eighth notes flowing for an entire solo, let alone a tune or set. So it's a good technical exercise as well. The main point in keeping to all one rhythm is it allows you to focus more on the choice of pitch--forces you think more about that actually. Quarter, eighth, sixteenth--doesn't matter as long as it's all the same rhythm and you are "filling up the spaces". Don't worry, this doesn't happen in real life! It's just an exercise to build vocabulary and quicken response times. In real life, solos are like speaking--filled with pauses, repetitions, breaths.(Think Ray Charles). When you're ready to improvise freely, that takes care of itself. Early on, there are payoffs for forcing yourself to have one note follow the other in steady time. Another thing I add to this adventure is the "don't hold or repeat any note" rule. It's a tall order, but again opens up things and has us confront a broader set of possibilities.

Another thing that works is to have the student sing(or whistle) a phrase or entire solo, then learn it and play it on the mandolin.
This is helpful because we tend to sing things that we want to hear, drawn from the music stored within ourselves. We don't tend to sing scales, modes, or fretboard patterns. When you transcribe other people's solos, you're really engaging this same process--listening enough times to commit a phrase to memory, then reproducing it in your mind, with your voice, on paper, on your instrument...so going into that well and pulling up something that sounds melodic to you, then finding a way to play that on the mandolin speeds along the process of improvisation as well.

I also like the idea of visualization on the fretboard. Do you know where everything is on the board, say what a major scale looks like and feels like? If you do, then finding minor, dominant, augmented, diminished(etc.)is only a matter of converting pertinent notes. I find it hard to believe that our favorite soloists, in the flow or the "heat of the moment" are thinking "I really want to play an F# right here, followed by an A.." I think rather they have territories,shapes, patterns(etc.) mapped out that allow access to the ideas that come along at tempo.

Lots of contradictions in the pursuit of good improvised notes and solos, right? You have to know a lot of seemingly dry mathematical info, then on stage or in the studio or at the jam get beyond that and play from the heart as much as the mind.
If it's prepared, is it improvised? If it's the melody, is it improvised? If you improvise a sequence of notes that the listener has difficulty tracking, is that a melody?

I guess it's a pursuit, an aspiration, one of those journeys without specific destination. To me it's where the fun is in playing music, and the mandolin is the perfect device to work with given it's easy to comprehend layout. I live for the few times each year or so when things fall into place and a decent solo comes out.

[pglasse]

Yes, everything that John McGann says above. That's an excellent, right on the money, collection of advice. I've saved that post as great advice to pass along to my own students.

In support of those points I'd also add:

Listen a lot (in other words almost non-stop) to great players (not necessarily mandolin) who improvise in the style you want to be fluent in. Listen in a variety of ways -- that is with an analytical mind (lots of possibilities here) and also just letting the sounds subconsciously enter your system.

When you're away from your instrument and not listening to music can you imagine what your current favorite soloist sounds like? Try improvising on a tune in your head in the style of that soloist. Try singing a solo in that style. Try these things as pure melodic exercises and also try them while visualizing where and how you would play this solo on the mandolin. Then sit down with your mandolin and play as much of what you've been singing and imagining as possible.

These (and Johns tips) are lifetime exercises. You really can't say "I've done all of those things and exhausted every one of the possibilities."

Enjoy the journey. If you're not having fun with the process you probably won't stick with it. We're all in some stage of the process. To me, one of the cool things about music is that we can have fun with it at virtually any level. I had fun the first thirty minutes I picked up a mandolin and it just keeps getting more rewarding.

Hoping your mileage doesn't vary....

[bobby bill]

I have been playing for quite a few years and only recently have I been taking baby steps in improvisation. Every great improviser will tell you that you have to know the chord changes you are improvising over. But I hadn't always taken that to heart. I learn a lot of songs from old piano sheet music. I come up with arrangements that play the melody and grab as many chord tones as I can grab. Once the arrangement gels and becomes ingrained, however, the actual memory of the chords I've been playing tends to slip away.

I think Don Julin's post of his Autumn Leaves lesson pushed me over the hump and made me realize I have to remember the chords. With his post in mind, I've started to practice songs in a different way. For example, I recently learned "Paper Moon" which fits wonderfully on the mandolin. The first time through, I play the arrangement I have come with - melody and chord tones. The second time through, I just play straight chords (as if I'm comping for another soloist). This is the part that ingrains the chord changes in my mind. The third time through, I attempt improvisation. Again, with Don Julin's post in mind, a start out pretty much just playing arpeggio's (or chord tones as Mr. Julin would say). And then after getting various arpeggios ingrained I start throwing in blue notes and passing tones and getting a little more diversified rhythmically.

One problem I have run into is that when I'm doing the improvisational third time through, when I find a pathway that sounds good, I tend to repeat it, and before I know it, I'm just playing another arrangement again rather than improvising. Question to the great improvisers who have already posted on this thread - do you ever run into this problem? Do you fight it? Do you force yourself off the familiar path?

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

One problem I have run into is that when I'm doing the improvisational third time through, when I find a pathway that sounds good, I tend to repeat it, and before I know it, I'm just playing another arrangement again rather than improvising. Question to the great improvisers who have already posted on this thread - do you ever run into this problem? Do you fight it? Do you force yourself off the familiar path?

An improvisation which solidifies into an arrangement is not a problem, but a feature! As Don suggested, improvisation can be seen as a 2 part process, notes + rhythm. I'd add that in addition there is a next layer of improv, that which occurs within a set of notes and rhythms. This would be choices of timbre, volume, tempo, phrasing, emphasis, etc. Maybe not "improv" in the strict sense, but one can use the same sequence of notes over the same set of chords in many ways. And to draw a parallel again with what Don said, to focus on the notes, you can choose to play all 8th notes (eliminate the rhythmic choices to focus on the notes). Equivalently, playing an arrangement lets you fix the notes and the rhythms, and now you can improvise on the subtler things listed above.

It's good to do both arrangements and fresh improv.

Cheers
MRT

[Markus]

John - thanks for the detailed list, it's rare to have so many good ideas gathered together so nicely. I also very much appreciate Don's exercise suggestions ... while on a lifelong learning path, it's great having a lot of ideas to keep practice fresh, and keep ideas fresh.

I'll check back and look for more ideas in another century, when I've explored all the ideas laid out here.

[Pipeous]

I love this kind of info. I remember Clapton saying he sings the leads out in his head as he is playing, so this stuff makes sense.

[Paul Cowham]

Interesting thread and thanks to John, Don and others for detailed expert posts.

A concept that I learnt recently (actually from Don at a great European mandolin event) is the difference between a melodic and harmonic approach to improvising. My understanding is that the idea behind a melodic approach is to improvise around the tune or head and with a harmonic approach the idea is to improvise around the chord changes with no regard to the original tune.

It seems to me that, very broadly speaking, a melodic approach is probably the more natural approach in a bluegrass context and the harmonic approach is probably a more common approach in a jazz context.

Adopting a melodic approach is to my mind a good way to start improvising and then learning a few harmonic ideas to incorporate into this a good way to start applying a more theorietical approach. I find starting with a purely harmonic approach is somewhat daunting.

[John McGann]

Many thanks to all, both for the kindness and also for the great ideas!

[mandocrucian]

John's response pretty much covers it.

And knowing the melody of the tune you are soloing on, in most cases, makes for better solos, especially when you are limited to a single chorus or two, as in BG & CW, etc.

My understanding is that the idea behind a melodic approach is to improvise around the tune or head and with a harmonic approach the idea is to improvise around the chord changes with no regard to the original tune.

The precursor to melodic improvisation is melodic embellishment/variation. The melody is still there, but you may have changed the rhythmic phrasing, added in extra notes, or temporarily substituted a harmony to the melody (and may or may not embellished that), etc. I don't really think of this as 'true' improvisation; the original melody is still there to a large extent.

This progresses to keeping some parts of the melody and substituting alternate licks/ideas here and there. And/or it might entail taking an important phrase and transposing/recycling that to other chords in the progression, so the "solo" is based around, say, a two-measure idea lifted from the melody. And the more you manipulate the original raw material, the more and more "improvisational" it becomes.

The "harmonic approach".......(to me) it's really just making up a new melody (melodies) that fits the chord structure, and then manipulating those ideas into a cohesive solo. It's more than just playing stuff that fits the chord progression with ideas are disjointed and disconected from each other. (i.e. playing a collection of your hot licks and the kitchen sink). So it's the "melodic apporach" applied to spontaneous "melodies" that fit the "harmonic" structure.

NH

[AlanN]

Good reading, with excellent contributions from many. This reminds me of a fiddle tune in Jack Tottle's book, name escapes me right now. He lays out the melody in one version, then presents an improv over the chord changes, where he stresses that the original melody is completely thrown out of the window and a new melody is played over the changes. Pretty cool.

Lately, been listening to the 50's/60's jazz cats - Lee Morgan, Benny Golson, Chet Baker, Hank Jones, Wes, etc - lots of great improv over tunes like Autumn Leaves, Stablemates, et. al.

[JeffD]

7. Try to "tell a story" while improvising via "call and response"; strive for a compositional approach where it's not random lick pastiche, but a sense of one phrase following another with a sense of inevitability.

Wow. You have nailed something. When I think about it, I like someone's break to the extent that it does this.

[Don Julin]

This is what make the mandolin cafe so valuable. John , Donnie, and Paul are the REAL DEAL and the fact that they are willing to share the information so openly on this forum is awesome. I consider myself an improvisor and would like to add to this conversation but you guys didn't leave me much to talk about this time.

One interesting approach I saw Andy Statman use one time in a workshop with a student that claimed they could not improvise, was to limit them to 2 or 3 notes and NOT try to play based on chord changes or melody, but to just experiment with those few sounds. See how many ways you can present these few notes both rhythmically and harmonically. In a very short amount of time the student was indeed improvising using a very limited range of notes.

I think were some people get hung up is that they think they need to be told what to play. Improvisation is a lot like composition in that we (you) are in charge and get to make the musical decisions. The best decisions are often made by those with the most experience so ........don't wait, pick up your mandolin and improvise. If you get stuck playing the same thing over and over don't worry too much, just try to explore other sounds. And remember listen, listen, listen. It's OK to steal a lick or two from your heroes. They did it too.

[Will Patton]

thanks, John - you've just provided me with a syllabus
-Will

[SternART]

This is what make the mandolin cafe so valuable. John , Donnie, and Paul are the REAL DEAL and the fact that they are willing to share the information so openly on this forum is awesome.

Geeze add Don Julin, Will Patton, & Niles to the list.....
Cool stuff to read with my morning tea! Thanks fellas!

[Tom Smart]

Next thing you know, Jethro will be chiming in.

[Polecat]

I think John McGann has put it very succinctly, and had I the self discipline to follow a syllabus, it would be hard to find a better one. One thing I don't think he mentioned: don't be afraid to make mistakes! The saxophonist Don Byas said in an interview with the drummer Art Taylor: "There is no such thing as hitting a wrong note. It's just when you hit that wrong note, you've got to know how to make it right" (Notes and Tones, Quartet Books 1982). A very good piece of advice, in my opinion. Scales and excercises help a lot to stay on the track, but if you don't try to surprise yourself, improvisation becomes like painting by numbers and ceases to be creative. I find it helpful to write a bass-line and some chords, using notation software (I use Finale Music's Print Music, but I can also recommend the "Notepad" version, which used to be free and now costs a paltry 9.99), and play it back, playing over the top and recording what I do. Sometimes what I play is very dissonent, but I also hear new licks and phrases which I like and can incorporate into the repertoire of phrases which every improvisor needs in order to play coherently. The advantage of this approach is that you don't have to burden other musicians with "avant garde" solos which, quite frankly can sometimes hurt (or make me laugh) to listen to, but I find I get quite a few new ideas.
Sorry, that wasn't really about teaching (well, teaching yourself)

[lenf12]

Most of you do not know Mark Robertson-Lessi or his playing skills but he is also "the real deal". He may be too modest to agree but he is one of the very best mandolin players here in the Tampa Bay area (imho) and can more than hold his own with the esteemed company mentioned in Don Julin and Art Stern's posts above.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[John McGann]

I love these two quotes:

Stephane Grappelli: "When I make a mistake, I make it twice, so the audience thinks I mean it".
Thelonius Monk, being asked why he was bummed after a set: "I played the wrong wrong notes!"

[Joel Glassman]

Choose a fiddle tune you like and
download a selection of mp3s of different
people playing it (from Amazon.com etc)
Could be fiddle or any other instrument.
Don't limit yourself to just mandolin players...
Learn each version as if it was a different
tune. Start to "knit" the different sections
together. Play an A section from 1 version
and then another A section from a different
version etc. [Texas style fiddle music is great
for this because they tend to incorporate
variations] I recommend a lot of singing
along with the notes in the privacy of
your car. After a while the versions will
become options, and then you will learn to
select notes & patterns you hear in your mind
and from other similar tunes. Its great
to make it a big project the first time.
Later on, you'll develop an ability to do
it all in your head. At this point anything you
play becomes an original inspiration rather than
copying. Its the development of a personal
style which is based on flexibility. Playing
solos on a tune can be done the same way.
After a few exercises you get the sense of
how to alter melodies according to your
own taste and technical ability.