Mandolins for choro

**gypsykat** · Dec-03-2011, 11:51am

I have recently become entranced by choro, and am looking for recommendations on instruments. Recently there was an article on this site regarding a Hamilton de Holanda signature model mandolin. I contacted the luthier in Brasil regarding that instrument and learned that the price for a very plain version was $8K, which is well beyond my means. The language barrier was also imposing, and da Google did not turn up other luthiers in Brasil. It does not appear that anyone is importing professional grade bandolims to the US.

There is a Giannini bandolim available for about $400 from Amazon. I had a Giannini guitar many years ago, and liked it, but I am skeptical about an instrument in this price range. Does anyone here have a comment about the Giannini?

I currently play a Weber Absaroka, and have come to the conclusion that f-holes are not the thing for choro--or for the gypsy swing I play all the time.

Would an oval hole mando be better suited for choro? Would it be a better choice for this music, given the scarcity of bandolims in the US?

All comments appreciated. Thanks.

**robert.najlis** · Dec-03-2011, 12:06pm

I play choro with my F5 style mandolin, and I love it. Mike Marshall also plays choro with his F5 style mandolin (a very very nice F5 style mandolin at that

).

Personally I am not a big fan of the Brazilian Bandolim, I generally don't like the sound that much, although Hamilton's certainly is very nice.

**Jim Garber** · Dec-03-2011, 10:52pm

I like the sound of the Brazilian made instruments. I also think that the Giannini's I have seen have been pretty decent, tho some of the luthier-made instruments are nicer if you know who to buy from. BTW you can see a whole range of bandolims on the eye candy page.

Having said that, you can certainly play the music on std American mandolins. The bandolim I have needs some refretting so in the meantime I play choro tunes on my Gibson oval hole A2.

**Randi Gormley** · Dec-04-2011, 8:29am

Giannini makes more than one level/price range of bandolim -- I have the cheap version with the solid top and plywood sides and back and a zero fret and it's not bad. I picked it up at a little music store in Eastchester, NY, that carries Giannini guitars. Apparently the owner brought it in on spec ... I had to have some setup work done on it, but it has a clear, bright tone. For what I use it for, it's been good. fwiw

**Loretta Callahan** · Dec-04-2011, 5:17pm

My teacher, Zak Borden, rocks the house with choro and his F5.

**Jim Garber** · Dec-04-2011, 6:32pm

Loretta: that is an excellent example of the difference in tone between the North American and the Brazilian instruments. Interesting that the bandolim seems to stand out a little more from the other instruments than the F5 tho both sound pretty nice. Prob has to do the with bandolim emphasizing more of the treble or at least in a different way.

**Don Stiernberg** · Dec-04-2011, 7:15pm

I'm pretty sure Zak uses a Collings MF5

**Jim Garber** · Dec-04-2011, 7:26pm

Certainly an excellent player, but I assumed that the mic was located closer to him. Those maple bandolims are deceptively loud and cutting esp since they have to compete with accordions, percussion and wind instruments.

**Doug Hoople** · Dec-04-2011, 7:48pm

Originally Posted by Jim Garber

Loretta: that is an excellent example of the difference in tone between the North American and the Brazilian instruments. Interesting that the bandolim seems to stand out a little more from the other instruments than the F5 tho both sound pretty nice. Prob has to do the with bandolim emphasizing more of the treble or at least in a different way.

Probably the same effect as bowlbacks when compared to F-style mandos. F-style mandos simply don't feature the clear and piercing highs that bowlbacks and bandolims have. The F-styles excel at complexity and projection in the mid-range, and lovely barking wood in the bass, but they just don't have the same shimmering, resonant, sustained high ends.

To the OP: you can play choro on just about any mando you like, and you can go for a very long time doing exactly that. But if you get truly bitten by the choro bug, and spend a lot of time listening to the Brazilian masters, eventually you'll find yourself drawn to a real bandolim. There's nothing like getting THAT SOUND.

There are a number of fine bandolims in the $1000-$1500 range. The Batistas are in this category, and the ones I've seen are really lovely. And I have a Barros that is probably comparable to the Batistas, and I love it.

Check out the Mandolin Cafe classifieds. You might have to wait a while, but sooner or later, someone will be trying to sell their bandolim. That's how I got mine, and that's how Linda Binder scored her Tercio Ribeiro 10-string (the builder of the Hamilton de Holanda model). I'm still jealous of the deal that Linda got on hers, actually, but never mind, I love the Barros, too.

Best of luck, and keep us posted when you find something!

**gypsykat** · Dec-08-2011, 3:12pm

Wonderful video. Wish I'd been there!

**gypsykat** · Dec-08-2011, 3:22pm

Thank you, Doug. I'm scouting out the Batistas and Barros now.

**gypsykat** · Dec-08-2011, 3:26pm

Thanks to all you who posted. Very helpful.

**alb** · Dec-09-2011, 7:53pm

As the person who shot the video, I can say the mic was not properly positioned. It was way too close to the pandeiro! I didn't know Zak or Simon ( the Pandeiro player) was going to be out there, and was only micing for Dudu and Douglas. This was part of the encore. You can tell that you can hear the guitar and pandeiro along with the bandolim better than Zak. If I had miced for that particular grouping, you would have heard Zak better, and less of the pandeiro.

So here's the deal. The bandolims cut better and are more 'brilliant' than any N. American instrument. It's like trying to create a mandolin to be louder than a banjo. Bandolim's were designed to be able to compete in a choro ensemble They almost sound "cheap" compared to an F5 (I own both). You wouldn't ever think of playing bluegrass on a bandolim.

But, if they are built of old rosewood they are better than anything we build for playing choro. Mine is wonderful. Yes, you can play choro on an F5. You should. Play it until you really understand why you "need" a bandolim. That's what I did. when I picked up my bandolim, I 'had' to buy it. It spoke to me unlike any instrument before or since. I assume like Grisman's F5 did to him. A friend offered to trade me his $5k Snakehead for it even! I had to tell him I respected him more than that. I wasn't going to rip him off for a $1500 bandolim that sounded better to him than his vintage Snakehead. To me, they are both fabulous instruments.

But even then, you may find the neck not quite right. I've played a number of bandolims and I feel mine is as good as the best of them. You may find yours isn't. Tim Connell, probably as good a North American player as exists (on a par with a few others), doesn't need a bandolim. He's got Paul Lestock's fabulous rip off of David Grisman's latest Italian instrument. Paul is building ridiculously wonderfully unorthodox mandolins that sound fabulous. I own one of his Jazzbo's and I love playing it, but regret it's lack of a radius'ed fretboard.

Marc Atkinson from Canada plays his choro on an A2. So do many choro players from North America. Marshall plays an F5. It's really about you, and your hewing to Brazilian tradition. Just like Old Time Music.

So memorize the music. Then go to Brazil. You'll find your dream instrument there, after you have mastered the music. Ask Dudu or any of the other folks to direct you to a builder. That's what I'd do if I didn't find my instrument here. Have fun! The only reason to play this music is to feel good.

Still learning and just a beginner....Hope to see all of you at the Choro workshop at Centrum in Port Townsend with Dudu and all of the other Brazilians in April!!! Last year's workshop was the finest I've ever been at.

**Doug Hoople** · Dec-10-2011, 4:09am

Originally Posted by alb

So here's the deal. The bandolims cut better and are more 'brilliant' than any N. American instrument. It's like trying to create a mandolin to be louder than a banjo. Bandolim's were designed to be able to compete in a choro ensemble They almost sound "cheap" compared to an F5 (I own both). You wouldn't ever think of playing bluegrass on a bandolim.

But, if they are built of old rosewood they are better than anything we build for playing choro.

They don't sound cheap, and it's not the rosewood.

They sound thinner, but then so do bowlbacks, and European classical players, with their exacting standards for sound, have not forsaken their bowlbacks for the "superior" sound of the F5.

Bandolins sound like they do because of their shape, especially the flat top and flat back, and also because of the strings.

A lot of bandolins are made from maple instead of rosewood, and I'd wager almost anything that you couldn't tell the difference listening to a recording. They all sound like bandolins. Hamilton de Holanda's 10-string is maple back and sides, if I'm not mistaken, and so is Danilo Brito's latest bandolim. Dudu's, come to think of it, is also maple back and sides.

The good news is that, because of their simplicity of construction, bandolins are fairly easy to build, and that's reflected in their price.

American-style mandolins start out more labor-intensive because they have graduated backs and tops. They become even more labor-intensive when you add all the decorative work that comes with fancy bindings and, especially, the scrolls.

Adding the F5 scroll with proper binding, when it's not being built at a factory in China, adds about $1000 in labor cost (or, at least, that was the rule of thumb about 10 years ago).

So the reason that American mandolins are more expensive is not because they are intrinsically better or less "cheap," it's because they're a pain in the butt to build.

Don't get me wrong. I came to choro listening to Mike Marshall's Brasil Duets album, and I love the way Mike plays choro, with an unmistakable North American "accent," but with plenty of love and fantastic playing. Hamilton himself says he wanted to find out who this crazy gringo was when he heard the album. Will Patton has been playing choro since the 1960s (!) on his old Gibson A-style, and he makes it sound great.

Choro can be fantastic on North American arched mandolins, given the right player.

But if you want the sound that you're hearing when listening to Danilo or Dudu or Hamilton, or to Deo Rian or Pedro Amorim or Henry Lentino or Joel Nascimento, you have to have a bandolim.

For my part, I played a bandolim for the first time ever, after several years of playing choro on an f-style, when Al handed me his Batista at the Centrum Choro Workshop in April 2010 (thanks again, Al!). It was love at first stroke. I had always thought bandolins to be too thin, too "cheap," but the perfect touch of that instrument and the sound, fluid, subtle and clear, spoke to me immediately. I bought my own bandolim as soon as I could after that, and it's been my primary instrument since.

**delsbrother** · Dec-10-2011, 12:16pm

A nice flattop would probably not be as loud (or as fashionable) but it would be easier to find and would approximate the sound with the correct strings. I think the Flatirons are a little too heavily braced, but perhaps a nice Martin or Big Muddy?

**mando Nick** · Dec-10-2011, 1:17pm

Several years ago Danilo Brito came to the Mandolin Symposium with a great looking instrument, which also had a really
nice tone to my ears. I asked him, through his interpreter (his wife?) about the instrument, and he said he had inherited it
and that it was around 40-50 years old. The next summer when he came back, he was playing a new instrument.

**alb** · Dec-10-2011, 10:27pm

True enough words Doug. The idea of "thinner" is actually a better description of what I was thinking. But they are different than any north american flattop I've heard. And I don't think putting bandolim strings on a flattop would give the same tone. It's also true they are easier to build.

Certainly our hand carved F's are worth the price, and sound very different than bandolim's, in a very positive different way. I love the depth I get from my F5 Collings, for example.

I appreciate the feedback on my Batista Doug. I'm thrilled to share this fabulous instrument difference with other players. I also feel I was incredibly lucky to find this instrument, and that the Rosewood is part of what makes it so 'rich' sounding. It is as good as my Collings (really better as I've played a few Collings that were better than mine) and Arrow (which I don't play as much so I don't get the wood moving as much), but in a totally different way than either. I've played maple bandolims, and they all, maple or rosewood, have that distinct bandolim sound, though somewhat more 'brittle' in the maple if that's the right description Not worse, but just different. And certainly the loopy floppy strings do something different to the sound. But take the fabulous mandolins that Paul Lestock is building and what Tim Connell is doing with it, it just shows that you don't need to use a bandolim to get there. Viva la difference. Or the equivalent in Portuguese.

To get back to the OP's post, I think an oval hole might be a better option than F, but don't fret it (that's a joke, son). Just work on memorizing the music, and wait for a bandolim to show up in your life. In the meantime, buy some bandolim strings and try them on your Absaroka for kicks.

**DSDarr** · Dec-11-2011, 11:36pm

Originally Posted by alb

Tim Connell, probably as good a North American player as exists (on a par with a few others), doesn't need a bandolim. He's got Paul Lestock's fabulous rip off of David Grisman's latest Italian instrument. Paul is building ridiculously wonderfully unorthodox mandolins that sound fabulous. I own one of his Jazzbo's and I love playing it, but regret it's lack of a radius'ed fretboard.

I seem to recall that Tim did play a bandolim at one point -- and that one of his CDs (which I don't have physical access to at the moment unfortunately) features him playing a bandolim on at least a few of the cuts.

Speaking of Tim though, if you are in the Seattle area (or will be on January 14th) I am hosting Tim and Mike Burdette (aka Rio Con Brio) for a late afternoon workshop and an evening house concert at my house in NE Seattle. PM me for details....

-David

**alb** · Dec-13-2011, 12:11am

I won't be available that nigh DS but am planning to do something in Port Townsend on the last week of December so we can get a video shoot of them in a concert setting. More to follow. I've posted some videos of Tim and Jack Dwyer playing a variety of choro and other tunes we shot in my house. Search Google for Tim Connell and Jack Dwyer to find all of them, but here's a link to one of the tunes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTT7FrV6E2M