Alternative woods for fretboards?

[Bernie Daniel]

Texas Ebony reminds me a lot of Pau Ferro, (Bolivian Rosewood, Ironwood) and not in the good way. It is nasty when cutting, irritating to the nose and skin. The grain is similar to Pau Ferro, a lot. It planes beautifully and polishes smooth and hard.
It isn't that oily, and glues fine.
Mine has a greenish cast to the main wood, with darker areas and red bands. The red is pretty, but most of the red is rotted.
It grows in the Rio Grande valley, right up against the river, and only a couple of fellows know what it is, and harvest storm fallen trees and sell the wood. You take what you can get, and everything I see is half rotted and twisty. They cut the wood willy-nilly, and you are lucky to get something usable. I think the wood turners are the biggest market for the stuff.

I cut it as close to the quarter as I could, which was very close. I dried the boards for quite a while, and it did not twist or crack.
I have two guitars building in the shop with Texas Ebony fret boards. I hope they darken over time, as I don't like the green cast.

Thanks for the great information -- this is a really intriguing tree to me for some reason!

From your description of the location it seems like it is a riparian loving species then?

I got a different impression from reading about it -- thinking it was drouth-tolerant open spaces tree. But that would explain why I did not come across it in the couple of years I worked with Texas A&M on the range land restoration project -- did not work near streams or rivers.

But reading about the spines (pic) on it I wonder if did not see one after all. On one birding junket in the desert I encountered a beautiful (and irritated) Loggerhead Shrike with a small shrew or field mouse that he had killed and impaled on a thorny tree -- they keep their food in a larder like that for later consumption (I paid not attention to the tree at the time!).

I expect finding smaller pieces for mandolin fret boards would be a better prospect?

[John Arnold]

The big problem with persimmon is that it is virtually all sapwood. In addition to the light color (basically straw color with grayish overtones), sapwood tends to have more seasoning problems, particularly warping, bug holes, and fungal stains.
On the one all-domestic guitar I built with a persimmon fingerboard, I bound it with black celluloid, and dyed it with black aniline stain after the frets were installed.
I first cut persimmon almost 40 years ago, and I have had several opportunities to cut trees since then. The best solid black heartwood I have obtained was about the size of a pencil, and it was the equal of tropical ebony.
I have found a few pieces with black striping in the sapwood, similar to macassar ebony. Here is a piece I cut from a pallet board in the mid-1970's:



I have been enamored with Texas ebony ever since I first saw it at my local exotic wood dealer. I found a couple of internet sellers who cut trees damaged from hurricanes, but my experience echos David's. The trees are full of defects, and grow very irregularly. Basically, finding a clear piece long enough for a guitar fingerboard has been a challenge. After much time and effort, I have been able to get a few nice fingerboards and a larger number of bridges. I do like the fact that the wood seems to have fairly low shrinkage during the seasoning process.
Yesterday, I visited the same wood dealer where I first saw Texas ebony, and they had one small 4/4 piece of lumber for $25 that yielded three fairly nice fingerboards. Not quartered, but with this wood, I don't think that is important.

I expect finding smaller pieces for mandolin fret boards would be a better prospect?

Definitely.

The trees will grow to a considerable size in the right environment reaching over 100 feet apparently. Anyone work with that?

My experience with sassafras is that it is about the same density as mahogany, and certainly no harder than walnut. In other words, it is too soft for fingerboards. However, I think it is a great mahogany substitute. I have used it for kerfing, neck blocks, and tail blocks, and I plan to use it for backs and sides.

[Paul Hostetter]

The big problem with persimmon is that it is virtually all sapwood.

Not all sapwood is trouble—consider all the Brazilian backs that are part sapwood and are, by some, regarded as beautiful?



Wouldn't it be safer to say that the big problem with persimmon is that it is persimmon?

I've had some chunks of persimmon I cut and put up 30-some years ago that seem as stable as can be, and the couple of mandolin boards I made seemed to behave themselves quite well. Maybe I've been lucky.

What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"

[billhay4]

Persimmon, being the standard wood for golf clubs in the past, would not seem to be known for instability. But perhaps I'm wrong on that. But a golf club is subjected to all kinds of moisture and stress. Can't believe they would have used a wood that is prone to splitting or movement.
Bill

[John Arnold]

What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"

Pithecellobium flexicaule is the old scientific name for Texas Ebony, but it has been re-classified as Ebenopsis ebano. It is in the Fabaceae or Legume family. In other words, it is not related to persimmon or true ebony.

Not all sapwood is trouble—consider all the Brazilian backs that are part sapwood and are, by some, regarded as beautiful?

If you look at my guitars, you will see that I definitely don't have a bias against sapwood.
My point was that if you cut persimmon trees to acquire black ebony, you are likely to be disappointed. And besides hickory, it is the most susceptible to borers of any wood I have processed. A lot of persimmon has ugly gray discoloration that apparently is tied to oxidation, so it is unevenly distributed in the board. It does have excessive shrinkage during drying, but seems to be as stable as necessary for a wood in that density class.
Two dense woods that have much less shrinkage than average are Texas ebony and black locust. When telephone poles were all wood, locust was the preferred material for the insulator pins, specifically because of its strength and stability.

[Rob Grant]

One thing that can cause problems with sapwood around these parts is the starch content. A high starch content generally makes the sapwood unstable (everything loves it... fungus, termites, borers, etc.). Locally we have some timbers that have incredibly beautiful sap/heartwood contrasts that would make lovely backs and sides. The problem with using these sap/heartwood combos is that you can't count on the sap maintaining it's colour, texture and internal structure.

[Dale Ludewig]

I'm not sure about the locust that grows around here. Probably a different species. Still it is called "black locust". And it warps all over the place, so it's probably a different timber than what John's talking about. But it is extremely hard.

I haven't (around here) seen much boring in hickory. Ash is another story, and this is years prior to the current infestation of ash beetles. I had some very nice ash, air dried, some years ago. Made a fine table out of it and then learned later that it was developing little holes in it. I've never had air dried ash in the shop since.

[Bernie Daniel]

Not all sapwood is trouble—consider all the Brazilian backs that are part sapwood and are, by some, regarded as beautiful?



Wouldn't it be safer to say that the big problem with persimmon is that it is persimmon?

I've had some chunks of persimmon I cut and put up 30-some years ago that seem as stable as can be, and the couple of mandolin boards I made seemed to behave themselves quite well. Maybe I've been lucky.

What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"

Paul, FYI, click back to post #42 in this string -- I pasted a bunch of stuff on Texas ebony there.

[John Arnold]

I'm not sure about the locust that grows around here. Probably a different species. Still it is called "black locust". And it warps all over the place, so it's probably a different timber than what John's talking about. But it is extremely hard.

You may be thinking of honeylocust, with has larger spines and much larger seed pods than black locust. Honeylocust wood has a pinkish red tint, while black locust is greenish-yellow, turning golden brown with age.
The range map in the following link shows where black locust grows.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics...eudoacacia.htm

Honeylocust:

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics...riacanthos.htm

Ash is another story, and this is years prior to the current infestation of ash beetles. I had some very nice ash, air dried, some years ago. Made a fine table out of it and then learned later that it was developing little holes in it. I've never had air dried ash in the shop since.

Sounds like powder post beetle to me. They don't seem to care what kind of wood they attack.

[Dale Ludewig]

John, that sure looks right to me. I'm sure that what grows around here is honey locust. And yes, powder post beetle. Thanks.

[mando andy]

So what do you think....are practical alternatives to ebony and rosewood for fretboards in the future? Is it a matter of acceptance by consumers?----would maple work and become a viable alternative if people were able to accept it?

Andy Morton
Madison, WI

[Paul Hostetter]

I took down a large yellow locust in my yard a couple of years ago, it was set upon almost immediately by powederpost. The only other local wood that's so vulnerable, nay even vulnerable at all, is bay laurel.

The most practical alternative to ebony and rosewood, aside from the synthetic boards like Martin has been using for years now, is either vacuum-impregnated woods such as walnut (like Ovation has used for decades) or maple, which ain't bad. Perhaps there's a way to vacuum dye it on a commercial scale. Fender has done pretty well at getting the public to take it in its natural blond color, though it looks pretty bad when the lacquer inevitably wears off.

[brunello97]

…..What's the Latin name for "Texas ebony?"

I've been back and forth across the border at Los Ebanos a few dozen times, maybe more. Great spot to remember about when considering the wood.

Mick

[Paul Hostetter]

Very cool, Mick. Thanks!

[David Newton]

Super picture of the ferry & marker!
Could I sneak a guitar into Mexico there?

[multidon]

Fender has done pretty well at getting the public to take it in its natural blond color, though it looks pretty bad when the lacquer inevitably wears off.

This is exactly why Leo Fender went to rosewood boards. He didn't like the way his early guitars looked after the fretboards after they got worn. He preferred rosewood for purely cosmetic reasons. But of course they kept offering maple too because some players preferred that. I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't maple harder than rosewood? Some violins in the Baroque period used maple fingerboards before they went to ebony. I don't know if they were finished. seems to me the main obstacle to using maple as a fingerboard/fretboard material is its light color, and how do you keep it from getting ugly? Other than that it should do pretty good. The different species of maple are different hardnesses too. I hear people talk about "soft maple" and "hard maple". I would assume the "rock maple" some guitar makers advertise that they use is pretty hard?

[Spruce]

...and how do you keep it from getting ugly?

One man's "ugly" is another's "sexy"...

[barry k]

Here is an example of one of my mandolins with the un dyed persimmon fingerboard. The proud owner is located in N.C. and plays in the band "Deeper Shade of Blue"

[Dale Ludewig]

I love the sapwood in that Brazilian.

I don't know if the general public is going to go for maple fingerboards on mandolins. Fenders are already accepted as very fine with that, obviously (on guitars). I think that one thing with black fingerboards, and even more so- headstocks, is intricate inlay. There is always going to be a little slop around routing the inlay. On black, it's a lot easier to hide our human frailties than on something like maple. It's cosmetics that drive a whole lot of public acceptance.

[Rob Grant]

Even in the best of flitches, natural ebony can contain hidden defects that if it weren't for the judicious use of "superglue" can easily ruin a hard won project. I've had our local black Ebony (Diospyros) sliced, properly stickered and stored for years and it will still play up when you turn it or use it for veeners and fretboards. I can see Maple (Northern Hemisphere Acer) as a viable and easily renewable alternative. It would seem that some sort of pressure dying technique could help with the colour problem.

Our local "true" Ebony still in the tree...

[Bernie Daniel]

Here is an example of one of my mandolins with the un dyed persimmon fingerboard. The proud owner is located in N.C. and plays in the band "Deeper Shade of Blue"

I remember that mandolin when it was in the classifieds -- I was impressed the fingerboard. Are you able to readily obtain persimmon for your mandolin fretboards? If so do you plan to continue using it -- that is are you satisfied with its function as a fretboard material?

[peter.coombe]

Well we have quite a few woods that can be substituted for Ebony, many of the desert Acacias make great fingerboards and tuning knobs. I think many are superior to Ebony because they are harder. Not black, but are lovely dark reddish browns. From top is Western Myall (Acacia papyrocarpa), Lancewood (Acacia shirley), NSW Ironwood (Acacia excelsa), and Gidgee (Acacia camnagei). There are many others that I don't have samples of. No shortage of trees, just a small market so not so easy to get the wood, but is not impossible to source if you know where to go. I have used NSW Ironwood and Gidgee and they make excellent fingerboards or tuning knobs. Gidgee can be so dark that after a coat of oil is difficult to distinguish from Ebony.

[Arnt]

Fruit woods, such as pear or apple, and usually stained dark, used to be a common fingerboard wood for instruments like the Hardanger fiddle over here. Its color is quite a bit darker than maple to begin with, nowhere near rosewood or ebony of course, but enough that dirt and grime doesn't show quite so much. It holds up quite well over time, and should be considered at least as well suited as maple. I used it for the fingerboard, as well the bridge and all the appointments on this mandola with all local (Norwegian) woods a couple of years ago. The other woods are spruce and birch.

[Josh Kaplan]

Arnt,

That is my idea of a great looking instrument, and the fact that it's local woods makes it even more special (even though I'm not from there!). I feel the same way about Old Wave, Peter Coombe's work, and some others I've seen from cyberspace.

-Josh

[Bernie Daniel]

Even in the best of flitches, natural ebony can contain hidden defects that if it weren't for the judicious use of "superglue" can easily ruin a hard won project. I've had our local black Ebony (Diospyros) sliced, properly stickered and stored for years and it will still play up when you turn it or use it for veeners and fretboards. I can see Maple (Northern Hemisphere Acer) as a viable and easily renewable alternative. It would seem that some sort of pressure dying technique could help with the colour problem.

Our local "true" Ebony still in the tree...

That is Diospyros humilis I guess. Apparently Australian ebony is difficult to process or cure. Here is a brief discussion with pics.