Fiddle Curious

[Jeff Budz]

If I were to recommend a first mandolin to a "switcher" (mandolin curious guitarist ETC) I would say to go to The Mandolin Store and order up a Eastman 305. I would also recommend they read a bunch of posts on the Mandolin Cafe'.

So what is the fiddle equivalent of The Mandolin Store, Eastman 305 and the Mandolin Cafe? I think I wanna give this fiddle thing a try but know nothing.

[baptist mando55]

Gianna violins for a beginner fiddle and fiddle hangout for info

[Elliot Luber]

The warning about learning fiddle is that it takes a while to get a decent sound out of it. Stick with it and it will come. Don't let a few squeeks scare you off.

[cstewart]

fiddlehangout.com

For a starter fiddle just win the contest on the front page.

[Jeff Budz]

Do you get more fiddle for your money than you do a mandolin since there are so many more low-mid range instruments made? Are the beginner kits (such as the one in the fiddlehangout contest) in the $2-400 playable?

I realize it isn't going to sound great at first, but I'm up for the challenge.

[Paul Busman]

You might consider renting a student grade violin for a few months to see how you like it. Lots of music stores have them for rent I think.

[Stephen Perry]

I like to see people spend around $500. Then the instrument works well and sounds surprisingly good, a reasonable bow can be included, and there's room for tuning fork, shoulder rest, decent rosin.

Setup is even more important than with mandolins. The number of things that need to be done are quite surprising. Fit pegs, trim & polish. Plane fingerboard, sometimes reshape the neck. Fit and adjust soundpost. Check and adjust saddle height. Fit or refit and cut bridge for correct acoustics and action. Adjust afterlength. Play and adjust as required for good response and tone. It's quite an adventure.

[Pete Martin]

I recommend renting until you know whether you want to persue the instrument or not.

A LOT of folks don't realize the learning curve on fiddle is very slow (for most of us anyway). Renting lets you bail out if needed.

[catmandu2]

not only that, folks who've been at it a while too seem to have ambivalent feelings toward fiddling--seemngly moreso than with other instruments ... perhaps it has to do with that learning curve; learning is prone to plateaus, and some days are good--others not so good. It requires some commitment of time and energy to acquire some reliable technique.

btw, ive got a German Knilling violin available--set up exceptionaly well for a student. PM if interested... was advertising it here but looks like it expired

[jmalmsteen]

I bought a Knilling Bucharest as my first (and only) fiddle and I bought it used from a music store that does a lot of rentals. The violin sounds great. Here's the problem with it- my husband hates it so I do not play it. I play my banjo which he amazingly isn't annoyed by or my mandolin.

[Stephen Perry]

I see many people who take up fiddle late becoming obsessed and rather good. Of course, I have a select group in that they talk to me wanting new toys.

It's pretty easy. No frets to trip over. A big stick instead of a dinky pick.

[catmandu2]

Well, it is "easy" to scratch out simple tunes, but it typically takes some time (usually, a lot of time) to develop good bow technique and make your fiddling sound good to the ears. Violin is generally considered the most challenging of stringed instruments...fiddle shares many of these same challenges.

Those frets afford the advantage of minimizing variables, making it easier to play notes "correctly." Fiddling requires concentration. I always thought of mandolin as relatively easy. Of all the instruments I play, fiddle is far and away the most challening, and most expressive--(which is the reason it's difficult).

[Pete Martin]

I always thought of mandolin as relatively easy. Of all the instruments I play, fiddle is far and away the most challening, and most expressive--(which is the reason it's difficult).

I wholeheartedly agree!

If you keep at it, you will eventually get it. It is huge fun to play the fiddle, but huge frustration at times as well. Best of luck.

[Stephen Perry]

My humor may be too dry.

An odd problem with fretless bowed strings is that the fretted instruments soon become most annoying with their out of tune notes. The piano takes me a good 45 minutes to put up with.

More than most instruments, good early coaching proves important. Bad habits being especially difficult to break without a shock collar and a bowl of M&Ms.

Relaxation proves quite important and difficult to achieve.

[Folkmusician.com]

Do you get more fiddle for your money than you do a mandolin since there are so many more low-mid range instruments made? Are the beginner kits (such as the one in the fiddlehangout contest) in the $2-400 playable?

At the lower price points you do seem to get a better instrument than a comparable priced mandolin. Violins/fiddles need a great deal of setup. The difference here is that violin shops traditionally do the setup work by default. You can get a surprisingly nice $200-$400 fiddle "IF" it has been setup well. We hear (correctly), that guitar setup guys are not necessarily a good choice for mandolin setups. This goes triple for bowed instruments. Fretted instrument specialists are not automatically qualified to work on bowed instruments. It is entirely different. Not to say someone can't be proficient in both.

[JeffD]

Do you get more fiddle for your money than you do a mandolin since there are so many more low-mid range instruments made? Are the beginner kits (such as the one in the fiddlehangout contest) in the $2-400 playable?
.

The rule of thumb, admitting there are exceptions, is no, its the other way. A fiddle will generally cost about twice a mandolin of comparable quality. Just like, in general, a mandolin will cost about twice a guitar of comparible quality.

Of course there are deals and exceptions and great buys and being extremely lucky, but from a distance in general, I keep finding this to be true. If you have an idea what $500 buys you in a mandolin, a fiddle of the same quality will be about $1000. Or conversely, if you see a real deal for a $400 fiddle, be prepared to expect what you would expect for a $200 mandolin.

[Jeff Budz]

So I went to the local mon-n-pop and rented a student violin for the next 4 months. I seem to have a nice, playable instrument. I was able to start "scratching out tunes" after about an hour. I've found some new mussels in my left shoulder and biceps, I figure it will wear off after a week or two. The tough part is that I think it's going to take more than week or two to figure out the intonation thing. I'm wondering if I'll need one of those shoulder rest things because it's not super comfortable to hold the violin with just the chin rest.

Overall, it's not as bad as I thought it would be.

[JeffD]

For curious switchers I always recommend trying to borrow an instrument from a friend for a week, or renting one from a music shop for a month or two. There are many more places that will rent you a fiddle than rent you a mandolin, actually.

That way you can see what you like and don't like, and when you do crank open the wallet, you have a better idea what you want.

Ooops. Well, there you go.. Good.

[JeffD]

At the lower price points you do seem to get a better instrument than a comparable priced mandolin

Hmmm. That has not been my experience.

Violins/fiddles need a great deal of setup. The difference here is that violin shops traditionally do the setup work by default.

Absolutely.

We hear (correctly), that guitar setup guys are not necessarily a good choice for mandolin setups. This goes triple for bowed instruments. Fretted instrument specialists are not automatically qualified to work on bowed instruments.

Yes, this is very true, and verified in my experience on more than a few occations.

[catmandu2]

The rule of thumb, admitting there are exceptions, is no, its the other way. A fiddle will generally cost about twice a mandolin of comparable quality. Just like, in general, a mandolin will cost about twice a guitar of comparible quality.

Of course there are deals and exceptions and great buys and being extremely lucky, but from a distance in general, I keep finding this to be true. If you have an idea what $500 buys you in a mandolin, a fiddle of the same quality will be about $1000. Or conversely, if you see a real deal for a $400 fiddle, be prepared to expect what you would expect for a $200 mandolin.

Don't know about retail, but this is not the case at all with used instruments. The world is full of decent student orchestral instruments. And so many of these wind up being sold after the student has moved on. Walk into any pawn shop--chances are there will be several decent and even good student violins....as opposed to, typically, no decent mandolins. This translates into price being vastly more affordable for violins.

Because violins (and clarinets, btw) are so plentiful, you'll typically see more of these for sale at second hand stores, garage sales, and pawn shops than any other instrument (except guitars of course). Very easy to get a very good student instrument for $200-$300..

[catmandu2]

I'm wondering if I'll need one of those shoulder rest things because it's not super comfortable to hold the violin with just the chin rest.

Foam pad or small towel and large rubber band will work

[Mandobart]

Shoulder rest - Yes you need one. I've played fiddle almost 40 years, never knew anyone to play without one. The foam pad works fine. I like the small "D" shaped ones with a rubber band over the lower bass side point. Much easier to keep in the case and more comfortable to me. Try different styles.

Don't forget the bow! We think $35 bucks is a lot for a high end pick; you can spend thousands on a good bow! And you've got to re-hair it frequently.

Funny I kind of set fiddle on the back burner when I left school and joined the service; got into guitar a lot more. Past few years with mando has-re-sparked my interest on fiddle and I'm having a blast jamming on the fiddle with a pickup I added. Lots of people play violin and fiddle, but few take 'em into a club and jam on blues/Dead/rock etc. It has been a big hit with the crowds.

[Folkmusician.com]

Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com.
At the lower price points you do seem to get a better instrument than a comparable priced mandolin.

Hmmm. That has not been my experience.

I was thinking about this more, and I am going to retract that statement or at least change it...

My statement is not true of readily available instruments from good shops that actually set them up correctly. If you go out to local shops, I think Jeff is correct. You will pay about double. If you go shopping online, it is much easier to find a bad deal than it is a good deal. Bowed instruments are deceptively complex. Shopping for them is not easy. If you buy a violin online, the safe best is to go with a high quality, well established brand from a well know dealer. In this case, you will also pay about double. There are some good values out there to be had. The problem is that it can be virtually impossible to tell what is what and where you should buy it. I’ll give a quick example at the low end.

In my opinion, a Cremona SV-150 violin is a better quality instrument than any mandolin I have ever seen under $200.00. Now it is important that the SV-150 be setup correctly which is where the difficulties come in. The types of dealers that are normally selling SV-150 violins are not setting them up. You do not want one that is not setup well, and if you take it to a violin shop they are either not going to work on it, or charge a whole lot for the work (there may be exceptions). Of course, your local violin shop is probably not going to sell them. They wouldn’t clear enough profit to stay in business.

If you know what to look for and find the best value, you can get a very decent starter violin for less than a comparable quality mandolin. But this is going in with a good idea of what you are looking for and where to get it. Something that is not necessarily common knowledge or easy to figure out.

[DeamhanFola]

So I went to the local mon-n-pop and rented a student violin for the next 4 months. I seem to have a nice, playable instrument. I was able to start "scratching out tunes" after about an hour. I've found some new mussels in my left shoulder and biceps, I figure it will wear off after a week or two. The tough part is that I think it's going to take more than week or two to figure out the intonation thing. I'm wondering if I'll need one of those shoulder rest things because it's not super comfortable to hold the violin with just the chin rest.

Overall, it's not as bad as I thought it would be.

As a fiddler myself, I definitely would recommend a shoulder rest: in addition to comfort, there's an argument that it helps get better sound as it causes less damping of the fiddle's back. And as a beginner, you'll no doubt want every bit of tonal improvement you can find!

In terms of an eventual purchase, I would have a look at used fiddles rather than new ones. You can get some great deals on early 20th-century German and French trade violins: as folks that play vintage instruments can attest, there's nothing like a century or so of aging to get a spruce top sounding good. Caveat emptor though--there are some old fiddles that sound bad/ are poorly constructed too, so try them out for yourself before pulling the trigger (or get a reasonable try-out period). I'd recommend the classifieds in the Fiddle Forum: you can get some great old fiddles there. Places like Elderly or Gruhn also have some good fiddles kicking around that have been checked out by luthiers (and you're buying from stores with solid reputations).

One other thing: don't neglect the bow. The bow is responsible for a significant bit of the sound too, both directly and indirectly (your comfort with it). It doesn't make sense to have a decent instrument and a dodgy bow. Various rules of thumb have been suggested: not a bad idea to spend anywhere from half to a quarter of the price of your fiddle on a bow.

Last but not least, rosin adds in subtle but distinctive ways to your playing, particularly as you advance. I use Salchow rosin which is reasonably priced and has a great balance of tone and grip in all humidities.

Happy scratching!

ps--on the left arm pain: it probably means that you're holding the fiddle too tight/ tensing up (if you're left-handed). Relax the death-grip on the fiddle neck: I've heard someone say that you should be able to have a cornflake between your thumb and the fiddle neck without crushing it. The shoulder rest might help with this too: you should be able to hold the fiddle where it needs to be with just your chin/ cheek and your shoulder: the left hand should be totally free for playing, not supporting the fiddle.

[Pete Martin]

I'm wondering if I'll need one of those shoulder rest things because it's not super comfortable to hold the violin with just the chin rest.

I've posted to Youtube a video on the ergonomics of holding the fiddle as taught me by a performing arts doc wen I was having lots of tendenitous problems. It will help you determine if you need a shoulder rest. Look for the one on "Holding the Fiddle".

http://www.youtube.com/user/Fiddlema...n?feature=mhee