Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
Hey guys,
Long ago, I asked about intonation issues with my bowlback (everything plays progressively sharper up the neck). Having tried what I can that is non-invasive, I still can't fix the issue. Is there anyone in the D.C. area who works with these little guys who could get it shipshape?
Thanks,
MV
"When I heard what Socrates had done on the lyre, I wished indeed even [I had done] that...but certainly I labored hard in letters!" - Cicero, "Cato the Elder on Old Age"
Mastercraft MSF400 F-style mandolin
Late 19th Century Ferrari(?) Bowlback
No-name, early 20th Century British Mandoline-Banjo
1960s Harmony Baritone Ukelele
The Magic Fluke Flea Soprano Ukelele (in 5ths!)
1910 German Stradivarius 1717 copy, unknown maker
1890(?) German Stradivarius 1725 copy, G.A. Pfreztschner, maker
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
Well, if your action is not too high, that just sounds like you need to move the bridge a bit further away from the nut. Search bridge placement on the forum and you out to be able to find good instructions- the only tool you need is a tuner. Every mandolin owner should learn how to do this anyway, IMHO.
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
Lighter gauge strings generally need less compensation at the saddle, and many bowl back mandolins use very light strings. Also, lighter strings exert less stress on the instrument's structure.
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
For some reason old mandolins often seem to need the bridge moved back from its original position. On a bowlback this can be tricky due to the crease in the top. You don't want to back the bridge over the crease if you can help it. So try very light strings and low action, plus maybe change from bronze to steel or silver wrapped (that made a noticeable improvement on mine). Maybe you're already doing all this. If you still can't fix the problem by sliding the bridge, you probably do need professional help.
There are a couple of bowlback people in the DC area on the board here. Hope they'll check in.
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
Yeah, the thing about intonation is that I have the bridge back up to the cant, and there's no change. Strings are Thomastik super-lights, so there's no issue there, either. It's just really weird. I'd like to get this thing playable fully by Christmas; it would be nice to play a church service on a bowlback....
"When I heard what Socrates had done on the lyre, I wished indeed even [I had done] that...but certainly I labored hard in letters!" - Cicero, "Cato the Elder on Old Age"
Mastercraft MSF400 F-style mandolin
Late 19th Century Ferrari(?) Bowlback
No-name, early 20th Century British Mandoline-Banjo
1960s Harmony Baritone Ukelele
The Magic Fluke Flea Soprano Ukelele (in 5ths!)
1910 German Stradivarius 1717 copy, unknown maker
1890(?) German Stradivarius 1725 copy, G.A. Pfreztschner, maker
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
Would have thought somebody would have chimed in by now....
Bueller?
"When I heard what Socrates had done on the lyre, I wished indeed even [I had done] that...but certainly I labored hard in letters!" - Cicero, "Cato the Elder on Old Age"
Mastercraft MSF400 F-style mandolin
Late 19th Century Ferrari(?) Bowlback
No-name, early 20th Century British Mandoline-Banjo
1960s Harmony Baritone Ukelele
The Magic Fluke Flea Soprano Ukelele (in 5ths!)
1910 German Stradivarius 1717 copy, unknown maker
1890(?) German Stradivarius 1725 copy, G.A. Pfreztschner, maker
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
You don't necessarily need a bowlback specialist but someone who has the smarts for setup. Certainly someone who has done work on mandolins and acoustics for sure.
Last edited by Jim Garber; Dec-01-2011 at 9:44am.
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
Playing lately:
Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- 1904 Embergher Type 3 -- 1937 Gibson L-Century -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- ca. 1890s Celebrated Benary Banjo -- 1985 Monteleone Grand Artist Mandola
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
Resurrecting this guy again, with an additional question: can you put the bridge on a bowlback on the side of the cant closest to the tailpiece without causing all hell to break loose?
"When I heard what Socrates had done on the lyre, I wished indeed even [I had done] that...but certainly I labored hard in letters!" - Cicero, "Cato the Elder on Old Age"
Mastercraft MSF400 F-style mandolin
Late 19th Century Ferrari(?) Bowlback
No-name, early 20th Century British Mandoline-Banjo
1960s Harmony Baritone Ukelele
The Magic Fluke Flea Soprano Ukelele (in 5ths!)
1910 German Stradivarius 1717 copy, unknown maker
1890(?) German Stradivarius 1725 copy, G.A. Pfreztschner, maker
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
They only maker who intentionally did this was Vega- not all, but the greater percentage of their bowlbacks, is my impression. I would not do it if the mando wasn't made that way- you get too far away from the brace, plus the induced arch is generally significantly greater above the cant, meaning that below the cant would be much weaker in resisting the downward force of the strings.Originally Posted by Mandoviol
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
As described by MV the bowl back cannot get proper intonation up the neck. Assuming that the bridge is presently in the correct position then the major consideration almost has to be nut hight and bridge hight. I have bowl backs over 100 years old which have never seen a luthier based on the nut and bridge hight. These will never play with proper intonation and I am guessing that if it is not a simple nut/bridge hight adjustment it will be costly.
Bent neck or collapsing bowl will be costly repairs if needed but nut/bridge adjustments are much less costly to have done by a luthier. Or can be done by a handy owner.
Bart McNeil
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
For luthiers in your area, I would get in touch with some of the local orchestras. There were bowlback players at CMSA last year in the Baltimore Mandolin Orchestra
You can also try the Takoma Mandoleers.
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
Playing lately:
Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- 1904 Embergher Type 3 -- 1937 Gibson L-Century -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- ca. 1890s Celebrated Benary Banjo -- 1985 Monteleone Grand Artist Mandola
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
It should go where it was designed to go - I'm only familiar with the Neapolitan mandolins and they all have bridges north of the cant. The first thing you need to do is get the action down as low as you can - this has two effects - it minimizes the need for compensation (string don't get bent as far when fretting), and it also minimizes the forward pull on the neck, often reducing any neck bow and body distortion quite markedly (which in turn improves the setup further still).
Even then you may find that the bridge needs to go partly on top of the cant - usually the treble side is on the right side, but the bass end of the bridge may be over the cant. That's OK though, the actual cant itself is usually pretty darn strong, the flat area south of the cant isn't though (it's basically flat and unbraced).
HTH, John.
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
You can work out where the bridge should be with a 12" ruler, or better a 24" ruler. A metal ruler from the hardware store is best. Put the end of the ruler against the nut and note the distance to the 12th fret. Century old mandolins are likely to have worked out the fret positions using the 'rule of 18', where the fret positions were established by dividing the scale length by 18 to get the nut to first fret position and then repeating the process to get the rest of the fret positions. The rule of 18 means that the bridge should sit pretty close to double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret, as the compensation is built into the fret calculations. Other than Vega instruments just about all bent top mandolins have the bridge on the neck side of the soundboard bend, so it would be unusual that the bridge would need to sit right on, or below the bend in the soundboard.
Cheers
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
John's comment that "The bridge should go where it was designed to go" is right on. Out-guessing the manufacturer about fixed bridge placement is asking for trouble. Once the bridge is misplaced and glued on, everything will be off, big time.
Once the nut and bridge are in proper adjustment. everything else can be looked at, but "first things first". Also as suggested above the lightest strings possible are recommended. A slight bow in the neck can often be repaired , or brought into adjustment, without major surgery but it can be a bit iffy if you are not confident as a woodworker. Sometimes the fretboard can be sanded to compensate for a slightly bowed neck.
Bart McNeil
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
I can't more highly recommend that you consider using the below info as your starting point.
As a result, either you'll solve this problem yourself (more likely) --or-- you'll at least end-up knowledgeable enough to be throughly understanding & conversant w/whomever turns out to be the professional repair tech selected to correct the intonation problem.
Here's an earlier response by the magnanimous forum participant, Rob Meldrum:
". . . . . . If you're handy at all, email me and i wil send you my ebook on how to set up a mandolin. You will learn how to measure string heights to determine optimum nut height and bridge/saddle height, and then how to intonate the mando so the pitch stays true all the way up the fret board. It's free. Rob.meldrum@gmail.com. "
Aside from my receiving an excellently written, well-organized, & highly instructive text of ~44-pages, the "COST" of this eBook also coincidentally happened to fall right into my price range.
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
Good news everybody: she's playable! Turned out we needed to shave off some more of the bridge. The D-string is ever-so-slightly sharp, but there's not much I can do about that given the tools I have (at some point, I'll have to invest in some graduated saws for nuts/bridges), but she still sounds nice and bright and I can finally play her. The year wait (that would have been entirely unnecessary had I just shaved it more) has been worth it. Thanks for all of your suggestions!
"When I heard what Socrates had done on the lyre, I wished indeed even [I had done] that...but certainly I labored hard in letters!" - Cicero, "Cato the Elder on Old Age"
Mastercraft MSF400 F-style mandolin
Late 19th Century Ferrari(?) Bowlback
No-name, early 20th Century British Mandoline-Banjo
1960s Harmony Baritone Ukelele
The Magic Fluke Flea Soprano Ukelele (in 5ths!)
1910 German Stradivarius 1717 copy, unknown maker
1890(?) German Stradivarius 1725 copy, G.A. Pfreztschner, maker
Re: Luthiers working in bowlbacks in the Washington, D.C. area
You certainly don't want to be gluing on a bridge on this (or any other) mandolin.
Mick
Ever tried, ever failed, no matter. Try again, fail again, fail better.--Samuel Beckett
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks