Music Theory questions

[Mike Bunting]

The perfect fifth is derived from the harmonic series as the interval between the second and third harmonics. In a diatonic scale, the dominant note is a perfect fifth above the tonic note.

The perfect fifth is more consonant, or stable, than any other interval except the unison and the octave. It occurs above the root of all major and minor chords (triads) and their extensions. Up until the late 19th century it was often referred to by its Greek name, diapente,[1] and abbreviated P5. Its inversion is the perfect fourth.

[aliza]

Thanks everyone for responding. The whole "major/minor" thing makes lots of sense.
On to more...

[aliza]

Hi. If I have an E minor chord, and the notes are: E, B, E, G in that order, is it a 2nd inversion chord with an added E at the bottom? OR is it a chord in root position because the E is at the bottom regardless of the order of the other notes? Thanks so much.
aliza

[bobby bill]

Aliza - in discussing inversions, you typically go by the bass note regardless of how the notes above it are arranged. With E in the bass, it is in root position.

[aliza]

okay thank you. that's exactly what I wanted to know.

[aliza]

Hi. What chord would you call these notes? G, A, F#, D? I see that it's a D major with... is it an 11th? can this be called anything else? Thanks

[Mike Bunting]

One could call it a D sus4

[Ed Goist]

Hi. What chord would you call these notes? G, A, F#, D? I see that it's a D major with... is it an 11th? can this be called anything else? Thanks

DmajAdd11

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

One could call it a D sus4

Sus4 chords technically do not include the third (F#). Add11 (or add9 for the second) is used when the note is in addition to the third but no 7th.

Aliza, what note is in the bass (if specified)?

[Mike Bunting]

Sus4 chords technically do not include the third (F#). Add11 (or add9 for the second) is used when the note is in addition to the third but no 7th.

Aliza, what note is in the bass (if specified)?

Gotcha. Should have known that. So the "add" is used when there is no seventh which would make it a major or even a dominant 9th or 11th?

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Yup. "add" is used when you are adding a note that does not follow sequentially through the stack of thirds. So a Cadd9 has no 7th in it, compared to a C9, CMaj9, Cmin9, Cmin-flat9, and so forth, all of which have a seventh note of some kind in it. Cadd11 will exclude 7ths and 9ths, etc.

I'll say that usage in practice will vary somewhat. Some people will say Csus2 when the mean add2 or add9 and vice versa, so in practice it's best to clarify if it's crucial to know exactly. But for an AP exam like the OP is studying for, naturally the machine will be wanting precise answers!

Cheers
Mark R-T

[Jim Broyles]

Of course it depends on context but if you make G the root you could call it a Gmaj9(no 3rd) or you could just call it a D/G.

[DerTiefster]

Is anything wrong with calling it a D4? It has the D(root), F# (3rd), and A(5th) but also has a G, which is the fourth note of the D scale. Mike Bunting tried "Dsus4" but I don't know what the "sus"pended or "sus"tained names really mean. Once upon a time I may have known, but I forget.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Is anything wrong with calling it a D4? It has the D(root), F# (3rd), and A(5th) but also has a G, which is the fourth note of the D scale. Mike Bunting tried "Dsus4" but I don't know what the "sus"pended or "sus"tained names really mean. Once upon a time I may have known, but I forget.

D4 is also used, but then most people will assume it's a sus4 and not an add4, since the sus is much more common. But yeah, D4, Dadd4 and Dadd11 are all good if it's a chord based on D. Don't know if the AP requires one standard, though.

The "suspension" term comes from counterpoint, where the suspended note is held over from the previous chord in the progression and resolved later. Really common is suspending the root note of the I chord into a following V chord. I.e., in C major, I / Vsus4 / V / I, which is CEG / CDG / BDG / CEG. The C in the second chord which is on it's way to the B note of the G chord is delayed (suspended) when the other notes (D and G) go to the V. Then it resolves in the next bar (but doesn't have to, of course.) But the idea is that the note that would resolve to the third is held on, and it can be a sus2 or a sus4. Baroque music is particularly full of incredible suspensions. Functionally it adds tension to the progression.

Nowadays the sus chord is also played without any "suspension" leading into or out of it, just for the sound of it. But traditionally that's where the term came from.

Cheers
MRT

[Jim Broyles]

DmajAdd11

I hate to disagree with mandochords.com, but when you use "maj" in a chord symbol, it almost always means that the major 7th is in there. Since there's no C# here, simply "Dadd11" would name it less ambiguously.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I hate to disagree with mandochords.com, but when you use "maj" in a chord symbol, it almost always means that the major 7th is in there. Since there's no C# here, simply "Dadd11" would name it less ambiguously.

Hmm. I think it's rare that "maj" indicates presence of a seventh. The primary way to indicate a seventh is to use a 7, 9, 11, and 13 (without an "add" before it). The use of major or minor suffixes does not in general imply a seventh eitherway. It denotes the flavor of the third. If there's a seventh implied by a high odd number, it can also inform the flavor of seventh, for sure. With the "add", though, the chord is simply D Major, onto which the 11th degree has been added.

By convention the "maj" is left off in some systems as an understood if "min" is not written, but addition of maj doesn't mean a seventh is in there as well. Now if you wrote Dmaj11, then yes, a 7th is in there. But D11 also implies a 7th. In other words, it's not the "maj", but the large odd number without an "add" that does it.

Cheers
MRT

[Philphool]

I think Jim was referring to 'maj' as implying the Major seventh. But I'm more used to seeing the entire term 'maj7' written. Just writing D11 would imply the DOMINANT seventh note is present.

So the notes <F# G A D> COULD be interpreted as

Gmaj7add9 (no 3rd). No?

[Jim Broyles]

Well, D11 implies a flat 7th, whereas Dmaj11 implies scalar seventh degree. When I see XmajX, it always means the major seventh is there whether it's Xmaj9, Xmaj11 or Xmaj13. It's the maj that puts the major 7th in a chord. You don't need maj in any other kind of major chord because it is understood to be major unless you specify m, as in minor. "7" without the "maj" always means flat 7, whether it's just a plain old X7, or an X7#9, or X7b5 or even Xm7. The 7th is flat in all those cases. To repeat, when a chord says maj it means the scalar 7th is in it.

[Jim Broyles]

No. Maj9 means the major 7th is there. Gmaj9(no3rd) would be the most succinct way to put it.

[Ed Goist]

I hate to disagree with mandochords.com, but when you use "maj" in a chord symbol, it almost always means that the major 7th is in there. Since there's no C# here, simply "Dadd11" would name it less ambiguously.

Thanks Jim; excellent information.
I really like your D/G designation. That one is most clear to me with my very basic understanding of chord theory.
Oh, and thanks to everyone for all the great information herein. As someone who is very new to chord theory and theory in general, I really enjoy and appreciate threads like this.

[Jim Broyles]

Here is one of the main things to remember, no THE main thing to remember about chord theory:

All chords are named using the degrees of the root's MAJOR scale whether the chord is major, minor, diminished or augmented. The numbers and words in a chord symbol tell you what to do with degrees of the root's major scale.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

To repeat, when a chord says maj it means the scalar 7th is in it.

Yes, but only if there is a high odd number after the "maj". Cmaj6 has no seventh. In some systems of analysis, the "maj" is not left off for a triad. So in the case of Dmaj-add9, this is not implying a 7th. The maj simply says that it's a Dmajor chord. There's no 7/9/11/13 before the "add", so there's no seventh. It's really a tiny point, but I think since this thread is about the AP exam, we should be careful to be precise.

Cheers
MRT

[Jim Broyles]

Mark, not enough time right now, but I'm not talking about add chords. If you see Gmaj13, it has an F#, an A and an E in it. If you see Dmaj9 is has a C# and an E in it. Always. You don't need the maj for an "addX" chord, because there's no 7th at all. I disagree about Cmaj6. It has the B and the A. If there is no B of any kind, then it's a C6. If the E is flat then it's a Cm6. No ambiguity. You don't need maj if it's a straight major chord. Major is the default color.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Mark, not enough time right now, but I'm not talking about add chords. If you see Gmaj13, it has an F#, an A and an E in it. If you see Dmaj9 is has a C# and an E in it. Always. You don't need the maj for an "addX" chord, because there's no 7th at all. I disagree about Cmaj6. It has the B and the A. If there is no B of any kind, then it's a C6. If the E is flat then it's a Cm6. No ambiguity. You don't need maj if it's a straight major chord. Major is the default color.

I'll admit I've never seen a Cmaj6 include the seventh. A quick look around the web shows that CM6 or Cmaj6 is CEGA. No B?

And I agree with you (repeatedly!): if there's a 7, 9, 11, or 13, then there is a 7th in the chord and the "maj" will affect that. No dispute there. But if there is NO high odd number, then the 7th is not implied. You don't need "maj", in that case, but it's not wrong, and it doesn't imply the 7th.

In other words, writing Dmaj for a D major triad is correct, and it does not imply a D maj 7th chord. Superfluous in some systems, yes, but not wrong.
OTOH, writing Dmaj7 for a dominant D seventh chord is not correct, since it implies a C#. Ddom7 or D7 is correct in that case.
But for any chord without 7-9-11-13, the 7th is not implied by maj.

In many systems, "maj" is default, and superfluous for triads and add chords, yes. I agree. But in some systems of analysis, the maj or "M" is used. My only point is that it doesn't imply a 7th. In all your examples, it's the odd number that implies the seventh, not the "maj"!

Cheers
MRT

[Ken_P]

The way I learned it was that the "maj" is superfluous (it's the default) unless you're talking about a chord with the major 7th in it. Also, I never bothered too much with the "add" designation. D11 to me doesn't automatically mean it must have D, F#, A, C, E, and G. It just means it has the triad, the G, and probably the C. It's all about context, where the bass is, etc. You'll often see in part writing a root position major chord without the fifth, because of the voice leading. It's still heard and analyzed as major chord, even though it technically isn't a chord at all. I think of it the same way with extended harmonies - the presence of a G in a D chord means that you can probably call it D11 without too much trouble, even if some of the other notes aren't present.