Your thoughts on unison vs. octave stringing?

[JPL]

I'm doing some CBOM shopping. While all options are still on the table, I'm leaning towards a five-course instrument, and my relatively short wingspan suggests that the scale length should be kept relatively short.

Could you all share your thoughts about unison v. octave stringing --- both in general and with respect to what would work best on a shortish scale ten-stringer?

[Edit: I'd also appreciate your comments on four course v. five course instruments.]

[Uath]

I have a cheap Lark"s Celtic cittern (10 strings). I haven't had much luck with it. The strings are tuned in unison and I believe it would be hard to string them as octaves. I may not know what I'm talking about, but octave strings would have to be different guages, wouldn't they? Well, cittern strings are hard enough to come by let alone different guages. Try Elderly music on the web. They seem to have everything. I know zouks are stringed in octaves sometimes, but there are only four courses.
The Lark's cittern is a fine instrument for what it is, however the extra two strings get in the way. I have better luck tuning it DGDAE, where it's like a mandolin except for the bass two. It sounds good DGDGD but not for playing with other people (I can't figure out any chords and end up ####### around with one (left hand) finger. What is the other cittern tuning? I think GDAED. Again, like a mandolin but having to skip the high strings for chords is highly confusing. You may be a master, so never mind, but I would stick with four courses like a zouk or an octave.

[Uath]

Man, sorry about the bad word. It had to do with passing gas. It wasn't THAT bad.

[JPL]

You may be a master, so never mind, but I would stick with four courses like a zouk or an octave.

Good singer and R&B saxophonist, marginal guitarist, novice mandolineer, and virgin CBOMer.

But I've been doing my homework --- Mr. McGann's fine OM book, "Celtic Backup for All Instruments", the Folk of the Wood OM video, haunting this board and asking newbie questions, and listening to as much CBOM as I can get my hands on.

Five courses may in fact be biting off more than I can readily chew...as I said, all options are still on the table. I guess I'm scarred by my years playing a bari sax that only went down to B flat...some of them go down to A, and you'd be amazed how often you wanna honk that low A...

[JGWoods]

Speaking from out in left field a bit- I don't have an octave mandolin nor have I played one- I tried octave tuning on my mandolin using spare A and E strings I just replaced one each onthe G and D courses and gave it a go.
I didn't like it. I didn't like the sound it produced and switched back to unison pairs.
If you already have a mandolin you ought to try it out that way. I think it will tell you what you will like best in an octave mando.
just a suggestion.

[JPL]

It is my understanding that intonation becomes more of a problem with octave stringing as your scale length shortens (although a properly compensated bridge can offset this problem to some extent). I'm not sure I'd like the sound on my mandolin, but I like it a lot on a 12-string guitar.

Steve James makes an octave-strung mando sound great in his Blues Mandolin video, and I've often thought of trying it on a cheap Johnson resonator mando for blues / jug band stuff.

[otterly2k]

Personally, I don't care for the octave stringing and prefer unison. The jangly full sound of octave stringing sounds best to me when used for rhythmic chording / accompaniment... but for any melodic playing, I think it sounds very awkward to go from the unison to the octave courses.

Then there's the custom strings issue. Yes, you can use individual strings gauged for higher courses, but- then you're breaking up pairs all over the place and to me it's kind of a hassle. Then there's the intonation issue, which can be messed up if the nut/bridge setup isn't designed for octaves. Then there's tuning, which is hard enough with unisons!

So my preference is for unison pairs.

Re: how many courses? Depends on your appetite.
I find my hands are plenty full with a four course OM. If I was going for 5 courses, I think I'd probably be looking at the mandola/mandolin variety for a greater range of melodic play and the short scale. But there is no right answer to this, of course. I've seen some nice 5 course citterns at around 20".

[acousticphd]

I set up an OM, that I converted myself from a Harmony archtop tenor guitar (21 1/2" scale), with octave G and D courses. I was after the shimmery Tim O'Brien sound. Though the Harmony is a little lower-end than the Nugget, I have to say I like the sound of the octave-strung courses and the instrument overall. The setup, and the choosing of string guages, is not so straightforward, though. I have more trouble getting clean fretted notes both strings in the octave-strung pairs - it takes more effort/pressure to get the lighter-guage octave string to fret cleanly. This would probably be solved with some more setup tweaking, or maybe by stringing the lower string below, rather than above, the lighter octave string.

Obtaining strings themselves is not difficult (single guitar strings are easiy found), but arriving at the best guages takes some experimenting
.
If it were me ordering an expensive custom OM, I would have it made for unison stringing. The reason is, you could still change in and experiment with some octave strings for some of the courses without modifying the nut and bridge.

[JGWoods]

When I tried octave pairs on my Flatiron Cadet Mandolin there were no difficulties that would inhibit giving it a try. The intonation was fine, tuning easy, I had plenty of lonely spare strings around to try. No changes necessary to nut or bridge. The mandolin adapted easily to the change, it was the player who didn't like the result...

[groveland]

I got a Trinity College Bouzouki - It had (has) the octave tuning (GDAE), which I initially intended to change, seeing that I am playing a sort of jazz styling on it and a lot of solo noodling, but I came to like the octaves. It has a sort of 'surprise' sound when you run from the unison courses over the octave courses. I will surely do unison some day, but for now, the octaves stay.

[otterly2k]

Well, JPL... it seems that there are opinions all over the map on this one. I guess you'll have to give something a try and see how you like it.

[Jacob]

My personal preference is for octave strings, with the octaves in the upper location when the instrument is in playing position, rather than the Rickenbacker twelve string guitar arrangement.

[Mandovark]

I've never tried octave stringing on my OM or mandocello, mostly because I haven't seen any need to. One of the things I look for in CBOM instruments is a deep bass sound, so it would seem silly to change that by adding an octave. I also play mostly accompaniment for songs or tunes and I use a lot of arpeggios where I want individual notes to sound clearly. I couldn't do that with octave stringing.

That's just me though, and you might want to do different things with yours. I think this is really a case of finding the right tools for the job: if octave stringing suits your playing style and ears, then go for it.

On your other question, there are pros and cons to 5-course instruments. My 10-string mandocello is tuned CGDAE. It gives great range for arpeggios, where the low C gives a real depth to the chords. It's ok for gentle strumming, but the low C is a little too low to sound convincing on anything more aggressive.

For me, 5-course instruments really come into their own when fingerpicking. My guitar-playing fingers can cope much better with two courses for the thumb and three for the fingers. I can get an alternating bass that I miss on my OM.

Again, it's about the right tool for the job. If possible, try a few instruments of different types and see which one feels best under your fingers and makes the kind of sound that you want to make.

[JPL]

Well, JPL... it seems that there are opinions all over the map on this one. I guess you'll have to give something a try and see how you like it.

True enough, but I appreciate all the different viewpoints. As a lefty who lives out in the boonies, I'm just not going to run across a lot of instruments I can try out.

Acousticphd has a good point about it being easier to swap in some octave strings on an instrument set up for unison rather than the other way around.

[Uath]

There's something I forgot to mention. A lot of five course instruments leave the bass string single. In other words, they have 9 strings. There are several high-priced citterns that do this. I can see why, after experimenting with my own cittern. The single bass string allows for lower tuning without the persistant buzz. You might want to check this option out. Look at Lark in the Morning, They have a huge selection of unusual instruments.

[EdSherry]

I prefer unisons for OM and melody playing, but octaves on my (longer-scale) zouks for rhythm. To my ears, the "jangly" sound of octaves works well on rhythm, so long as there's another instrument (guit*r) keeping down the bass line. That said, I also have a unison-strung zouk for certain applications, especially when there isn't a guit*r player available.

I have several five-course instruments, but usually play four-course these days. I still use the five-coursers for song accompaniment (tuned DGDAE).

[Bill Van Liere]

I like the unison sound best, especially on an overtone rich instrument.

I am looking for a large supportive sound to propel the ensemble. My instrument, a Steven Owsley Smith OM, has a 14 1/2 inch body with a 22 3/4 inch scale length.

[Ken Sager]

I've experimented with octave pairs and fell in love with GgDdGGDD on both my OM and a standard scale mandolin. It's fun for celtic and old-timey playing but requires a little work getting used to a different tuning if you haven't tried something like this before. It's worth a shot.

My only 5-course is a 5-string electric which is a different sort of animal. It would be fun to experiment with different tunings with a 10-string beast, too.

Best,
Ken

[steve V. johnson]

I love the sound that a number of Irish players get from octave stringing, but I haven't ever gotten any of my instruments to sound that way. I guess I need a Joe Foley or a (gulp!) Sobell to get that going on...

So... I play a Phil Crump bouzouki with a 25.4" scale, and it's strung in unisons. I tried octaves, several different string sizes and all, and I didn't get what I really wanted, so back it went to unisons. I have had some instruments thru here that have had octave stringing and worked well, per se (that is, mechanically they were fine with it and had a good sound, but not the one I wanted), and some that worked well for other folks, too. The Crump is about my fifth or sixth
zouk/om instrument. It's a keeper, it's not going anywhere, but there will probably be some more here before I'm done... <GG>

When changing back and forth from unison to octaves, the nut and saddle string slots are important. If a nut is slotted for large unison strings on the lower courses, the small octave strings very likely will have some physical difficulties with intonation. Often lower-end instruments need more care and attention to set-up issues to change them back and forth between octave and unison stringing. But then, those instruments almost always can get the most benefit from a professional setup anyway. Aside from really paying attention to the setup and nut/saddle configurations, I don't see any real physical impediments to octave stringing.

It seems to be entirely a matter of personal taste.

Number of courses... I don't 'get' five courses. I just have a limitation there, it's very difficult for me to grasp. But I have some friends who just -WAIL- on those things and they sound tremendous. Last summer at the Dublin, Ohio, Irish festival, I began to get a tiny glimmer of comprehension of how to use on, but only a tiny bit. And the ways five-course instruments are strung and tuned are -all- over the place. Some folks put the 'extra' course up high, some down low... some use a low B or a C or a G or an A... I never know what I'm grabbing. My one glimmer came with a very, very nice instrument that had a low D then the GDAD that I understand, so I began to see how I could grab a unison low note, like on a guitar in DADGAD and for a moment it almost made sense to me... <GGG>

At one time I thought, hey, if I got a five-course and still couldn't figure out how to play five courses, I could take off two strings, leave the outer two slots open and just have a nice wide neck for a four-course instrument! So maybe they can multi-task... <GGG>

The good news is that there are no standards that will force to you to conform to some orthodoxy, but it also means that you have to ask a lot of questions of a bunch of folks to establish enough criteria to help you figure out what you want and want to do. Welcome to CBOM... it comes with the territory.

As this thread goes on, maybe more of the five-course folks will chime in with their experiences and views... I hope so.

I really like the notion of an octave-strung mandolin... intriguing! I may have to try that. It would probably work on some instruments better than others... Hmmmmmmmm..... Thanks, Ken!

Anyway, welcome! Get some instrument and start to play. Few of us ever have just one. We're sort of serially monogamous, or ... maybe just serial... about these things.

All the best,

stv

[zoukboy]

When changing back and forth from unison to octaves, the nut and saddle string slots are important.

It seems to be entirely a matter of personal taste.

I agree with Steve on this. It is definitely easier to change from unison to octave pairs because the smaller octave strings will fit into the larger slots for the unison strings, but that doesn't mean it will play in tune up the neck, and the smaller strings in larger slots may buzz. (Switching from octave to unisons involves enlarging the nut and saddle slots for the larger unison gauges.)

If switching a unison strung instrument to octave pairs, the best thing to do is to have a new nut cut for the gauges you're using, and having a good tech intonate the bridge (if one piece) or saddle if your bridge has one, *separately* for each of the gauges in the octave pairs. This is important - if the bridge intonation for each string in the octave pair is the same, just as if it were strung with unisons, then it is almost a certainty to play out of tune as you go up the neck.

And yes, I think the choice between unison or octave pairs is simply one of personal taste. I hated the sound of octave stringing for the first 22 years that I played the instrument but 3 years ago that changed and now I can't seem to do without it!

[Shana Aisenberg]

A number of years ago I had a Trinity College zouk w/ long scale and octave strings. I currently play a Trillium Octave mandolin in zouk tuning, GDAD or GDGD, unison strings. I like both sounds, but only have one zouk so unison it is for now.

Seth

[mandocrucian]

You'll run into problems with octave tuning if you try using it for blues/funk/jazz because it'll play havoc with chords that have altered extension tone.

You can't play a 7#9 chord in octave tuning because it'll actually give you an A# and B note 1/2 step apart, rather than

(G') B' #(D) F #A#

=========6===
==1======8===
==3======9===
==4=========

B'-B #F-f #A#-a# #or stacked as the ear hears it #B' F A# B f a#

But...not a problem if you stick to music with modal and diatonic chords.

NH

[zoukboy]

You'll run into problems with octave tuning if you try using it for blues/funk/jazz because it'll play havoc with chords that have altered extension tone.

I remember hearing a LP years ago by the great jazz guitarist Pat Martino that he played entirely on 12 string. He mentioned in an interview that he had to be really careful about his chord choices for the very reason you mentioned, Niles. It must be simpler on guitar with more strings...

[groveland]

You can't

Hmmm... Never say never?

I certainly get your point about the #9 and 3 clashing for that particular voicing. I use this on bouzouki for jazzz/blues:


(Note GDAE, GD courses octave)
Depending on instrument and situation there are voicings that work and some that don't work so well.

[JPL]

As I mentioned above, Steve James plays an octave-strung mando on a tune called "Juanita" on his greatly entertaining Blue Mandolin video, and it sounds great...but I think that particular style of music by its very nature accomodates a little bit of funky dissonance.

Roger, do you use octave or unison on your recent recordings (your CD was on my Amazon wish list, but Santa let me down...)?