Revelation in liner notes of Goat Rodeo Sessions

[greg_tsam]

I was hoping that standard notation wasn't 'sterile" like I perceive it to be. It doesn't look appealing to me but maybe that's b/c I don't understand it and not familiar with it. Tab is OK but limited. What I really enjoy is improvising leads during my breaks and learning how to tastefully back up my compadres when I'm not. I really enjoy playing back-up and think it's just a big of a challenge as lead playing, just different. They're both capable of being creative, harmonious and creative when skilled enough. That's my goal.

Here's a great example of all these things at work.

[SincereCorgi]

I was hoping that standard notation wasn't 'sterile" like I perceive it to be. It doesn't look appealing to me but maybe that's b/c I don't understand it and not familiar with it.

Reading notation as a classical musician requires a different mindset. It's like an actor doing a play: the interpretation and artistry isn't in making up new stuff but in putting life into existing words, usually words that can very easily be made to sound hammy or stilted. Moreover, like with, say, Shakespeare, there's a variety of inflections and tones and subtle changes in speed that can drastically change the power of the performance, and it's a subtle line between 'powerful' and 'chewing the scenery in a community theater'. Improvisation's all wrong for it- would you want to see Keanu Reeves 'riffing' on The Merchant of Venice?

[Charlieshafer]

I think part of the reason a lot of younger players are really enjoying playing Bach, and working some of his compositions into their performances is because Bach himself encouraged players to improvise on the compositions, and not be a slave to them. Josh Pinkham is an interesting example; while Grisman called him a brilliant young improviser, when I saw him last week, he was spending a lot of time during slack time working on Bach, and wove a bit into one tune during the show. We stuck a youtube clip of it up, if anyone is interested, I'll try to see if I can stick it up here.

[JonZ]

Here is a fun fact about Mr. Meyer: he has inlays on his fretboard to help him play in tune.

[Rob Fowler]

IWe stuck a youtube clip of it up, if anyone is interested, I'll try to see if I can stick it up here.

Charlie, is this the one you were talking about?

[Charlieshafer]

Yes indeed. Glad you know how to insert them!

[WaveRay]

And then there's those of us who do nothing well.

[journeybear]

I recall reading years ago that George Martin had a really hard time getting the orchestra to play what he wanted at the end of The Beatles' "A Day In The Life." I think all he was asking them for was an upwards glissando and crescendo, but because it wasn't written (and there are certainly a great many ways this concept can be delineated), it was difficult communicating this. For those used to improvising, this seems pretty straightforward; for those used to playing something written out, this may well be confounding.

I have found the notion of improvisation being taught in classes at music schools somewhat amusing.

[catmandu2]

I have found the notion of improvisation being taught in classes at music schools somewhat amusing.

Well, there are programs for "classical" music, and there are jazz-based programs; two disparate approaches, very different, many schools offer both.

But maybe it's the concept to which you refer. My brother (who majored in "educational leadership") didn't understand how courses could be taught in art criticism (in which I majored); IOW, he didn't understand that theory could be applied in the plastic arts.

But other than that...still, the concept of what is "legit" persists...but mostly this is cultural BS, and as John says, thankfully rapidly changing, but many classical musicians tend to hold taught to these stereotypes (guess why).

[journeybear]

It was the concept, that making up something could be taught, that made me think of this as ironic or oxymoronic. I first encountered this while working as a librarian at a music school - mostly classical, a little jazz (I mean, one teacher). This was also where I discovered the difficulty classically trained musicians have with improvisation. I invited some of my friends there (who played in some of the local and regional orchestras, and their Yale affiliations also implied they were no slouches) to monthly potluck-hootenannies, and they invariably had hard times fitting in. Most of the time they hardly even unpacked their cases. I've heard it said violin and fiddle are two different instruments; this seemed to bear that out.

I may not be the one to expound on this with any depth. I am largely self-taught, so almost everything I have learned in my formative years came from improvising (in the sense of this term being a kind way of saying "fumbling around"); the book-learning aspects came later. Having to be taught how to improvise may make logical sense for people who have learned from being taught, but it is at odds with my frame of reference. That said, it sounds like Yo-Yo Ma was able to bring his decades of musical experience to bear in this project, creating parts that would work with the other instruments in the ensemble. If he has to spend time writing them out first before bringing them to a session, that is surely what works for him, and I'll bet he is well aware of his strengths and weaknesses.

[catmandu2]

It was the concept, that making up something could be taught, that made me think of this as ironic or oxymoronic. I first encountered this while working as a librarian at a music school - mostly classical, a little jazz (I mean, one teacher). This was also where I discovered the difficulty classically trained musicians have with improvisation. I invited some of my friends there (who played in some of the local and regional orchestras, and their Yale affiliations also implied they were no slouches) to monthly potluck-hootenannies, and they invariably had hard times fitting in.

That's because classical players are geeks and jazzers are hip...more stereotypes

But seriously, concerning jazz pedagogy, as you mention, I think your feeling of a bit of irony (aside from general cultural attitudes towards the professions and academia) sheds light on concepts in "learning"; for example, how do we teach this? But when we consider that all learning is really a process of discovery, and we can nurture this by creating the conducive environment, then it may make more sense.

[journeybear]

Then again, teaching jazz improvisation could be seen as even more oxymoronic.

I haven't read the liner notes, so I don't know the context for the statements as reported in the OP , but I sure hope they don't somehow extol the virtues of willful ignorance. That is a concept I can't understand. Unless one is attempting to cleave so closely to one's own inner muse as to eschew all outside influences for fear of inducing corruption - but only a nut like myself would do that, and even I have set that aside. Pretty much.

[catmandu2]

Then again, teaching jazz improvisation could be seen as even more oxymoronic.

elaborate?

You might be thinking of this: when I was in college, the then current paradigm from the faculty was "don't criticize anything with strict methodology, or you might frustrate or impede the next Picasso..." Made for some difficult academic conditions, I'm sure..

BUT, there are some differences between music and the plastic arts, that provide for some easier references...not only the fundamental differences among them, but the manner in which they are viewed and treated in society (music being much more utilitarian); generally, most folks can deal with a pretty wide variety of music (well, let's say they can understand it as music, rather), compared to the plastic arts--which became increasingly formalistic, and inaccessible to the general pop.

[Brent Hutto]

Of course improvisation can be taught. I know a young man who teaches one on one improvisation lessons. People comes to him, most of them fine players on whatever instrument, and after a few lessons they're able to improvise. No different than taking voice lessons or tennis lessons. Some people Pick up whatever skill you might name with no need for training. Other people learn it from someone who knows how to impart that skill by way of lessons.

[journeybear]

elaborate?

Well, just that jazz is generally considered to be rooted in improvisation, learned on the fly rather than taught in a classroom. Which is not to say that jazz musicians are not experts at what they do, nor to ignore the achievements of people like Glenn Miller and Duke Ellington (and surely many more), who were not only great composers but great arrangers. That takes some doing, arranging big bands to sound as if they were improvising.

But I can see how this is indeed a skill set, as Brent pointed out while I was formulating my response, and can be taught and learned just as any other aspect of music. I wonder if classically trained musicians have to unlearn part of their training in order to embrace improvisation.

Me, I'm in this group, succinctly expressed thusly:

I'm heartened to know that I'm in the company of Yo Yo Ma when it comes to improvising, and Stuart Duncan when it comes to reading music.

[catmandu2]

I wonder if classically trained musicians have to unlearn part of their training in order to embrace improvisation.

It's more a matter of concept, rather than technique. Classical players have the technique, but often lack the concept. When you put the two together, is what we're increasingly enjoying now--like that video above of those kids. It's cool that kids study both jazz and classical now, in the same academic institution. Times were that you studied at Julliard by day and in the clubs at night. I think musical academia came around, eventually, by the same mechansims as I mentioned in art school above. By necessitiy, the "boundaries" are becomng less defined. But from what I hear on the jazz and classical boards, there's still plenty of resistance, inevitably. Traditions die hard.

[allenhopkins]

The idea of "soloing over the changes" -- improvising a melody line above the chord structure of a tune -- is firmly ingrained in jazz. If a player comes up with a really effective improvisation, he/she may adopt it as a structured solo, playing it essentially verbatim in future "replays," just the way a bluegrass player may have worked out a "break" to a particular song/tune, playing it the same way every time. Another musician playing the same song/tune may play a different "break," an effort that may be either applauded or criticized.

Classical musicians have to exercise their creativity within a narrower compass. "Soloing over the changes" of a violin concerto is not, in general, approved; the piece is played as written, with individual variations in dynamics, perhaps, or subtleties in tone or tempo -- but no significant departures from the score. Classical aficionados may discuss the different versions of an often-played piece, with different conductors or soloists, but to those less familiar with the piece, the versions may well sound nearly identical.

Operating in one mode or the other over years of playing and performance, will generally impart a particular orientation, so that venturing outside that "box" becomes more difficult and anxiety-producing. So you have vernacular musicians who refuse to learn standard notation, because they think that it will somehow impair their ability to "play by ear" and improvise. And you have classically-trained musicians who really don't "dig" the idea of improvising, and only depart from the written score with the utmost difficulty.

But then you have a lot of us who can both read (albeit less than expertly) and improvise, perhaps not brilliantly. It's really not either/or, but can be both, and I'm sure, in an exigent circumstance, Yo Yo Ma could come up with a cello line on the spot.

[John McGann]

Then again, teaching jazz improvisation could be seen as even more oxymoronic.

With all due respect, as a jazz educator (among other things), I think you don't actually know what you are talking about.

[journeybear]

Thank you, Allen. Once again, the meaning of life (or something like) appears in Post #42. Odd how that happens, sometimes. But seriously, I know I am out of my depth in any discussion of classical music, so I appreciate it when someone can bring something to bear. And as a layman in this area, ie, not an educator, I was making a joke. Not the world's funniest, I admit, but no offense was intended. And I already backed off from that statement, anyway, having learned a bit from this discussion.

BTW - According to the wiki: "The term goat rodeo or goat rope refers to an especially chaotic situation, typically in a corporate or bureaucratic setting." I am not sure how they settled on this title for this project - maybe things were a bit chaotic - but I hope this is explained in the liner notes. I would think a release with this title on a classical imprint would suggest something out of the ordinary was at hand.

[catmandu2]

John, you've probably written on this in the past, but might you share with us some prevailing attitudes among the faculty there? Or, maybe not at Berklee, but generally trending in academia.

[Chip Booth]

It's a small mystery to me that someone who composes does not improvise. I have always thought of composing as improvising with the ability to change your mind.

[Chip Booth]

I have found the notion of improvisation being taught in classes at music schools somewhat amusing.

I teach people to improvise on an almost daily basis. There is a distinct skill set that is used and it can most definitely be taught. There is also a creative aspect to improvising and that is harder to teach, so some will naturally be quicker to pick it up than others, but make no mistake, it can be taught.

[catmandu2]

Environment

[JeffD]

It's a small mystery to me that someone who composes does not improvise. I have always thought of composing as improvising with the ability to change your mind.

Yea. I have thought the same, the other way. Improvising is composing in real time in front of people. Ahhhh. You have one chance to either get it right or convince them in the following notes that you meant it.

[wreded]

i have a guitar player friend that grew up playing piano and reading. He can't play a lick without the music in front of him and sometimes those little guitar chord diagrams. With the music he's fine, without it You have to tell him the chords as they're passing. i've been trying to bring him along a bit with his ear and my simplistic understanding of theory but it's a long row to hoe trying to get someone out of their comfort zone.