Scroll Envy

[Onesound]

Many, many times I've read Board advice, particulary when funds are limited, that it is better to buy a good quality "A" rather than a mediocore "F". #Now, this seems to make good sense. #After all, we all want great tone and solid construction that will stand the test of time.

But, I'm also wondering how many of those who give that advice, in fact, own Scrolls. #I don't mean to critize, but it's easy to recommend second best when you (yourself) own the best.

Guess I'm feeling a little frustrated because I've been playing mando for over 20 years and have yet to be able to afford a "quality" Scroll. #With "F" prices now going above $2500, and in many cases way above that, I doubt that I ever will be able to afford (or at least justify) that expenditure. #However, that does not diminish my desire to own an "F". #So, I will probably, at some point, spring for an modistly priced MK or Eastman Scroll, even though I could buy a better guality "A" for equal to or less money.

What is it about the lure of a Scroll that WE just can't seem to resist?

Cheer,
# # Brian

[neal]

Well, you don't have to install a strap button, for one. #They look great, for 2. # I've got one of each, an early Gibson Ajr and an 80's Japanese Morris F, and I find myself longing for another A style, this one in a flat top, #but the F's sure are purty.

Brian, you've waited this long, why don't you put 25 bucks a week away in a mandolin fund and you'd have 2400 in 2 years. #I've found that has worked for me over the years 'cause I was always finding an excuse for a new/old guitar. #Now my loyalties have changed.

I should add that I've just started a new one, the old fund went toward the house, so I have a wait, too.

[Eugene]

I favor bowlbacks. Do I count? As a matter of fact, I only own one archtop mandolin at the moment and it's an old Gibson A. I have never owned a Gibson-style F. I've played and admired the craftsmanship inherent in a number of F styles including some mass-produced cheapies (like Michael Kelly), high-end production instruments (like Collings, Weber, etc.), fine boutique instruments (like BRW, CMI, Gerhardt Unicorns, Silver Angel, etc.), a Loar-era Gibson F-5, and a just post-Loar fern. Not only do I advise against F styles unless you're ready to commit a good deal of money to them, I find the looks to border on garish. At least they shed that crazy 3rd point!

[John Flynn]

I have owned an all-solid wood, handmade F. I got a good deal on a mandolin that just happened to have scrolls and points. I traded it on an A that is an all-around better mandolin. I have nothing against F's, but IMHO:

> I am not willing to pay for extra woodwork just for show.

> The F design has been overdone. How many F's does the world need? If I wanted to pay for extra woodwork, I would get a Lyon and Healy A, with the violin peghead. It is a cleaner and more interesting design, IMHO.

> I have had problems and seen problems with cracking and breaking in and around scrollwork. Bill Monroe, Chris Thile and many others have had their headstock scroll broken off.

> F's tend to be heavier and I like a lighter instrument.

> I've had problems replacing tuners on an F that I would not have had on an A.

> I prefer the clean lines of an A.

> To date, the best sounding mandolin I have ever heard close up was an A (Nugget). That proves to me that the scroll doesn't necessarily get you any better tone.

> If an A is good enough for Tim O'Brien, Buzz Busby and Jody Strecker, it is good enough for me.

But if you really need a scroll, by all means, get one!

[Bob A]

Two scrolls, a '21 F4 and an '85 Unicorn. (And a scroll H4 mandola).

One A, '24 A2Z.

Two inbetweens, L&H A and B.

A dozen assorted bowlbacks, US, German, Greek and (mostly) Italian.

Of the ones I favor most, high on the list would be the F4. Possibly because it has been with me since the beginning. But it does have an appealing tonality, though it isn't tops for volume, and like all Gibson-style instruments, suffers from being made of too much wood. The L&H instruments are the best overall compromise between the Gibsons and the bowls, IMHO. And you have your choice of scale lengths, 13" or 14".

[mad dawg]

Wow, its confusing and intimidating at times when trying to choose what new mandolin to buy, with all of the different F-styles, A-styles, flat-tops, cylinder-backs, and bowl-backs out there. It's no wonder its so hard to choose an upgrade instrument, and no wonder so many of us succumb to the laws of MAS and MPC (marginal propensity to consume) as our incomes grow. (Although at second glance, I guess MAS is nothing but a specialized form of MPC.)

[Onesound]

I have flip-flopped back and forth on the A vs. F many times. #The F appeals to my visual artistic sense. #As you say, however, the scroll does absolutely nothing (as far as I can tell) for the sound. #Maybe it adds a little mass, but that can be good or bad...

One thing about Fs is that they almost all look alike (at least from a distance). #The $15K+ Gilchrists don't really look any different than a $1K MK. #If I spend serious money for an instrument, I like it to be unique - not radical, but someting special that I will notice every time I pick it up. #Even the sunburst stains are often nearly identical between instruments of wide price differential.

The new Rigel Q-98 has nice, graceful lines, and there is a Q style that is really attractive, but quite pricey. #I've recently become acquanted with the airy sound of bowlbacks. #Some of these instruments are heavly ornamented, which adds to their uniqueness - and also their price.

I like the weekly savings fund suggestion - although I'd (or my wife would) probably find another reason to spend it long before I've reach my goal. #

Cheers - Brian

[JenWantstaJam]

I agree Brian, F-style mandos all look the same to me. I have an A now and I am having an A built, partly because I can't afford an F, but mostly because I don't want something that looks like all the rest - especially when the cheapies look like the top mandos (from afar).

[PhilGE]

I believe at least one person developed (at least in theory) a prosthetic scroll made of resin or some such thing. Of course, it's not the same, but think about it - you could add a padded pick compartment for quick access to picks. #You might even have enough room in to allow a capo...

-Phil (ducking out - fast!)

[Jeff Baldwin]

I played an MF for 3800, an MT for $~1800. Bought the MT
got everything except the scroll..saved $2000. Didn't think
twice.... #

Jeff

[Eugene]

The F design has been overdone. How many F's does the world need? If I wanted to pay for extra woodwork, I would get a Lyon and Healy A, with the violin peghead. It is a cleaner and more interesting design, IMHO.

Of course, the whole of the F design originated in the Gibson Co. #I cannot think of any other strictly aesthetic feature of a musical instrument without any practical functionality (hanging your scroll off a strap just isn't enough to earn the "functional" moniker) to have originated in a single entity and become so universal. #Gibson's catalog designations became so universal that many American mandolinists call any roundish mandolin "A style," whether or not it's a Gibson A or a L&H style B, Martin E, Martin 2-20, Bacon Professional...even a bowlback! #I'm not certain if the proliferation of F style mandolins is a testimonial to the universal appeal of the Gibson Co.'s aesthetic or if it demonstrates an embarrassing lack of original aesthetic sense amongst modern mandolin luthiers...or demonstrates the commercial need of skilled luthiers to pander to trivial popular aesthetics...or a bit of all of the above. #I suppose somebody, somewhere must have concocted the first violin scroll, which would be analogous, but its origins are lost in history and have been part of the design for over 300 years.

That said, whether the violin-style scroll is on the head or not, I think the soundbox of L&H's asymmetric style A mandolins is the highest state of grace achieved by the archtop mandolin.

[Eugene]

...And of course, the analogous guitar design, the beastly Gibson style O, never did catch on. #What beasts! #Thank God for the proliferation of Martin's Dreadnaught instead (even though the Dreadnaught is also way too newfangled for my taste).

[jasona]

#Not only do I advise against F styles unless you're ready to commit a good deal of money to them, I find the looks to border on garish. #At least they shed that crazy 3rd point!

*lifts a glass toward's Eugene*

Couldn't agree more.

[Greenmando]

I own a Flatiron Festival F made in Bozeman and a great A9. They both sound great but I find myself reaching for the A9 first.
I personally like the third point.

[boatman]

I've not been able to justify the expense of an "F" style mandolin, though that is what I want. If your financial obligations allow the additional cost of the "F", go for it. I figure $2000 for a real nice "A"; $4000 for a good used "F".

[Onesound]

I would really like to see some builders take a giant leap and design a mando that is still astetically pleasing, but DIFFERENT. #This is probably dangerous, though, as building an instrument is time consuming, and what builder wants to be stuck with a design that no one wants to buy. #There are a few that I know of - Bill Bussman and his C# comes to mind, etc.

Scroll envy is not the fault of the builders; they are simply giving us what we want, and the complexity of the scroll certainly increases costs.

Benefits of a scroll:
# Strap hanger
# Cigarette holder
# Pick holder
# Reason to pay an extra $1000

Anybody have any others?

[Mandobar]

for something different try paul lestocks G style (it comes after F) www.arrowguitar.com

[mrbook]

I've owned several A models, and almost all the new ones I've considered buying are also A models. I've always found you can get more instrument for the money with an A, and I notice no difference in sound. Yet, as you say, you will see me playing an F model most of the time. Somewhere in the course of buying instruments, I came upon a decent handmade F model in the same price range as a good A, and I bought it. It sounds good to me, is set up the way I like it, and to my mind seems to be the right instrument for me - not better than I think I deserve, but good enough that I don't have a burning desire to get a better one. When I think of another, though, it is the clean, simple look of an A model that gets my attention.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

I have a Capek Old Era (scroll, F style) mandolin and would gladly give it up for an A style with better tone.

Tone is everything. I know what I want to hear, and I don't care whether the instrument has a scroll & points, no scroll w/ points, neither scroll nor points.

The jury is still out on the Capek. A bridge change may do the trick. It may not, too.

Best,
Daniel

[atetone]

I have developed a real taste for the aesthetics of the A style. I just like the looks of them. Of course they don't all look the same. Some of them have no nice lines to them at all, but some of them are just beautiful to me.
I have only owned one Fstyle and don't have it any more but that is not because of the styling but because the instrument was poor.
Here's a strange thing though,,, F hole F styles don't really catch my eye but Oval holed Fstyles really appeal to me. I would like to have one but as mentioned, the price is considerably more than an equivalent A style.
I will probably get an oval holed Fstyle one day but only when I am in a financial position to get a good one.
Right now I am enamoured with my "new" 1918 Vega cylinderback. Different but very nice,,, lot's of character.

[Eugene]

F hole F styles don't really catch my eye but Oval holed Fstyles really appeal to me.

Check out the F-2 listed at Buffalo Bros..

[Eugene]

I would really like to see some builders take a giant leap and design a mando that is still astetically pleasing, but DIFFERENT. #This is probably dangerous, though, as building an instrument is time consuming, and what builder wants to be stuck with a design that no one wants to buy. #There are a few that I know of - Bill Bussman and his C# comes to mind, etc.

In addition to those mentioned, how 'bout the vintage Bacon professional, BRW, CMI, Rigel, Breedlove, Phoenix, Davidson, or those to emulate Lyon & Healy's profile like the CMI two-point, Hirsch, Dean, Smith, etc. There is plenty out there; you just have to look to find it.

[Jim Garber]

I would also include Rigel which certainly has a different design take on even the f model.

Jim

[Eugene]

I would also include Rigel which certainly has a different design take on even the f model.

I agree...that's why I did.

[mandroid]

... those 2 points on the bottom edge do help the instrument lay in the lap just so nicely .