Wide grain on A40

**John Kinn** · Oct-15-2011, 10:44am

I have a nice sounding late forties Gibson A40N with extremely wide grain in the spruce top (Sitka I assume). Was this normal on the late forties-early fifties A40/A50's, or were they all over the place?Were any other spruces (Adi/Engelman)ever used on these?
Thanks!

**lenf12** · Oct-15-2011, 11:09am

Both of my Gibsons ('16 F-4 and '56 F-12) have fairly wide grain spruce tops so I would say it's not a trait of just the 40's - 50's. It seems to have been in common usage thoughout most of Gibson's history. There are many instances of 2, 3 and even 4 piece top Gibsons. Back during Lloyd Loar's tenure, tighter grained Adirondack spruce was reserved for the 5 series instruments although there are many wide grained instruments to refute this observation. It seems that Gibson used whatever was available at the time and by the late 40's - early 50's (post WWII), Adi spruce was not generally available. BTW - I like wide grained spruce tops and A-40N's. Nice mando!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

**Spruce** · Oct-15-2011, 11:13am

Originally Posted by John Kinn

...with extremely wide grain in the spruce top...

How many GPI (grains-per-inch)??

Originally Posted by lenf12

I like wide grained spruce tops....

Here ya go...

**John Kinn** · Oct-15-2011, 11:55am

GPI : 7 or 8. "Extremely wide" is maybe a bit exaggerated..

**Spruce** · Oct-15-2011, 12:13pm

Originally Posted by John Kinn

GPI : 7 or 8. "Extremely wide" is maybe a bit exaggerated..

That's wide...
My favorite grain spacing if it's consistant, and--contrary to popular belief--a lot harder to find in a tree than tight graining....

The pic I posted is about 3 GPI on the treble side, which is ridiculous...

**sunburst** · Oct-15-2011, 12:32pm

...Still have that wedge with the w - i - d - e grain, haven't cut into it yet.

**Spruce** · Oct-15-2011, 12:56pm

1 gpi??

**Dale Ludewig** · Oct-15-2011, 1:14pm

That treble side- is that quartered? Or anywhere close?

**John Kinn** · Oct-15-2011, 2:54pm

I saw the picture of the wide grained mandolin from Spruce's post (I think it was maybe on Frets.com) and the comment was that this is a very good sounding instrument. So I guess there are only esthetical reasons to save the tight grain for top of the line instruments..

**barney 59** · Oct-15-2011, 3:24pm

I've heard people say that the wide grain sounds better. My A-0 has what I would consider wide grain and it sounds very good. My other mandolin has much tighter grain and it sounds good as well. I know that with guitars the common consensus is that the tighter the grain the better.

**Dale Ludewig** · Oct-15-2011, 3:32pm

Wide grain/ narrow grain- I don't think there's a consensus other than what people like to see. From my experience, there is no direct correlation between gpi and stiffness and therefore: acoustical qualities. Not to mention that between board and finished instrument, there's a luthier involved. I just finished a mando and am working on finishing up another that has some pretty wide grain (this didn't come from Spruce but did come from another well known supplier) that is really stiff considering the gpi. I'd guess 5 gpi. It's red spruce and it is bright.

**sunburst** · Oct-15-2011, 3:35pm

Stiffness, density, and internal damping. Those are the things that determine the quality of a top. Somewhere, sometime, someone wrote that tight grain is better, then it was repeated and written in lots of places and it became a "truism". There is a lot of that sort of thing when it comes to instrument making.

**Spruce** · Oct-15-2011, 10:00pm

Originally Posted by sunburst

There is a lot of that sort of thing when it comes to instrument making.

I'll say...

**Bernie Daniel** · Oct-16-2011, 9:27am

Originally Posted by Spruce

I'll say...

I agree!

But it is interesting to speculate on. I have always had this "feeling" that wide grain produces great tone because I think each time I have encountered it the results were great sound. But that is certainly not confirmed even in my own mind.

One question though -- I assume the wide grain is a function of the spruce species and the growing conditions at the time? That is wide grain occurs during periods of ideal growth (water, sun, temperature)? Are some species more prone to wide grain than others?

**sunburst** · Oct-16-2011, 9:56am

Wide grain indicates relatively fast growth. That can be because of climate, soil, lack of competition (from other trees and plants) or other factors. It is not necessarily an indicator of species.

**Spruce** · Oct-16-2011, 11:32am

Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel

But it is interesting to speculate on.

Yeah, but absolutely impossible to prove one way or the other...

Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel

I assume the wide grain is a function of...the growing conditions at the time? That is wide grain occurs during periods of ideal growth (water, sun, temperature)?

A more common cause is simply an off-centered tree....
I just happen to have a log in my firewood pile that displays this nicely:

I've milled trees that produced cellos on one side with an 8-10 GPI count, and fiddles on the other with 35 GPI or so...
Pretty common....

But even if a tree is not off-center, it's mystifying trying to figure out why it grows like it does...
Go to a clearcut sometime (if you want to risk depression)...
You'll see trees with 10 GPI that grew 15 feet away from ones with 45 GPI...
Same soil, same water, same sun, etc. etc.

You see stuff like this all the time...