Here's a Mystery - Cromwell A12?

[JLeather]

I want to hear what the experts think of this listing:

"Cromwell" Gibson on eBay

What has me confused is the fact that Gibson only built "Cromwell" instruments until the late 30's, according to what I've read, but this appears to be a 1960's A-12 mandolin. It's even got the characteristic inlay down the center of the whole length of the fingerboard, which is a Cromwell thing, so it's not just an altered silkscreen on the headstock.

There is obvious evidence of work done on the neck. Did someone actually go through the trouble to graft an entire 30's Cromwell/Gibson neck onto a late 1960's A-12? And if so, why?

[acousticphd]

The back of this one is also maple, which the A-12's were. All the Cromwell's I've seen (including mine) are A-styles with mahogany bodies. This sure does look like the Cromwell logo and fingerboard, but that is a wild headstock shape I've never seen before. Wood would have to have been added to an A-style headstock to come up with this shape.

There are a few examples online of stores selling what they claim is a 1940's Cromwell mandolin, but these look like the '30s examples shown here in previous threads.

[MandoSquirrel]

I've seen Gibsons and Epiphones in that body shape, but never a Cromwell, and the headstock shape throws me, too.

[Schlegel]

It is plainly a Frankenmando. They put the neck off a late 30's Cromwell on it and modified the peghead.

[William Smith]

I emailed seller to see if it had an FON #,,on the iside and he said it was too faded!,,the F-holes do speak 30's Cromwell/Kalamazoo..it also looks as though the back has a brace.like the budget 30's A models I've seen, finish looks 30's,but not too sure on the flat scroll,I thaught lumpscroll myself ,neck?.looks like a mod job,but hey ya never know with depression era Gibsons',,I've heard of and seen some strange ones,,let the experts chime in on this one?

[Schlegel]

The body's not from the 30's. Don't waste any time worrying about that possibility. The back brace is not original- it makes me wonder just how bad the damage was. Like I wonder if that might be the base of a post supporting the top rather than a true brace. I'd be very leery. I have seen an A12 in pristine shape go for just over a grand, so I wouldn't risk much on it.

[barney 59]

It's not a Gibson "lump" it's flat. There is no body style out there that I've seen like that that you could Frankenstein that thing together with. It very well could be just what it says it is. A "Cromwell"---- maybe a Gibson experiment that didn't get very far,an F style for the proletariat!

[MikeEdgerton]

It's a Gibson or Epiphone lump scroll model. Just because the Gruhn book says the Cromwell's were 30's models doesn't mean somebody didn't try and resurrect the brand in the 60's and 70's. That headstock shape never saw the light of day in the 30's and that body never saw the light of day in the 30's. I'm wondering if it was a prototype, either built in Kalamazoo or imported. I don't think it's a Frankenmando. Gibson built the A12 models and and apparently imported the same style with the Epiphone brand name on it.

[MikeEdgerton]

It's not a Gibson "lump" it's flat. There is no body style out there that I've seen like that that you could Frankenstein that thing together with. It very well could be just what it says it is. A "Cromwell"---- maybe a Gibson experiment that didn't get very far,an F style for the proletariat!

Gibson made that body style.

[MikeEdgerton]

Looking at that neck joint, something happened there but I'm not sure it wasn't just a bad repair. The other problem I have with this is that this thing really looks like it could be older than the 60's. That brace on the back looks just like the flat backed Gibson A's from the 30's. I may backtrack and question if this was an attempt to create an inexpensive F model like someone has suggested during the golden age of Gibson second line instruments (the 30's). Could it be that Gibson actually resurrected this body style in the 60's? This might be a historical instrument.

[MikeEdgerton]

For posterity.

[MikeEdgerton]

According to the Gruhn book there were two models of Cromwell mandolins. The GM2 and the GM4. In Joe Spann's book there is a FON listed for a Cromwell GM-5 (FON 574B) in 1936. The only GM-5 listed. I'd love to have that thing in my hands for a few minutes. We might all be surprised.

[MikeEdgerton]

And more, the GM-6 as well. This is from the Paul Fox book Other brands by Gibson. Who knows. Somebody buy that thing so we can get a better look at it

[JLeather]

I am actually interested in it as a curiosity atleast. No idea what it'll bring. That back looks like very nice wood, better than any of the 60's A12's I've ever seen. I was thinking with that vintage pickup it might be kinda fun to play through an old tube amp for country/swing/etc.

It's true that even a fairly nice 60's A12 only brings $800-$1000. but this is eBay so who knows. Just look at what the obviously fake Gibson F5 brought a few weeks ago.

Edit - I keep coming back to that back, so to speak. One piece, very nicely flamed, etc. That's a heck of a nice piece of wood for a Cromwell, or any 60's A12, but It matches up with the lump scroll and everything. Very strange.

[William Smith]

Looking at that neck joint, something happened there but I'm not sure it wasn't just a bad repair. The other problem I have with this is that this thing really looks like it could be older than the 60's. That brace on the back looks just like the flat backed Gibson A's from the 30's. I may backtrack and question if this was an attempt to create an inexpensive F model like someone has suggested during the golden age of Gibson second line instruments (the 30's). Could it be that Gibson actually resurrected this body style in the 60's? This might be a historical instrument.

I'm with you Mike,thats what I thaught inprevious responses,but I got shreded after my comments,Depression era Gibson most anything was possible..I've heard of a lefty F-7 in Canada,an F-2Century,numerous different cheaper A+F models with F-5 appointments,No one person knowes everything!

[barney 59]

Nice looking piece of wood or not what do you think the chances are , assuming that it is a genuine Cromwell, that it's pressed/laminate? I've seen plenty of arched guitars with figured wood that were pressed.

[allenhopkins]

Well, bid's still hovering just above $300, four days to go, and if it stays under $1K, almost worth bidding just as a "mystery mandolin." Could well be a "one-of" that G was floating as a budget model; unlikely to see another one, in any case.

[MikeEdgerton]

Pressed and laminated are not unique to each other. All of the Gibson second line instruments were pressed, even though they were solid. With that said I do believe that the Gibson mandolins with a back brace like that had laminated backs. I could be wrong about that.

[MikeEdgerton]

Well, bid's still hovering just above $300, four days to go, and if it stays under $1K, almost worth bidding just as a "mystery mandolin." Could well be a "one-of" that G was floating as a budget model; unlikely to see another one, in any case.

Not necessarily, if it is indeed a GM-5 or GM-6 (and we don't know that) there were more of those produced than one if we believe the numbers put forth for the FON. The problem is we don't know the FON or the model number. I have yet to find a description for the Cromwell GM-5 or GM-6. I have a FON for the GM-5 from Joe's book. The other source I'm not real sure of. It would be nice if we had that catalog description and hopefully Jim Garber has Cromwell pages.

[MikeEdgerton]

Just for giggles here is a shot of a Cromwell GM-4 that has been lightened up to the extreme. Note the brace inside the back. This model is basically the same as the Kalamazoo KM-21 except it has that funky inlaid piece of binding down the center of the fretboard like all Cromwell instruments.

[Schlegel]

I have a Cromwell GM4- I don't think it's laminated although it may well be pressed. I can just barely make out some flame on the interior. It's much like the one in your pic, with back brace.

[tkdboyd]

I thought I should show a A12's lack of a back brace, and the fact that it has a Florida, joins the body at 14th vs. the eBay at the 12th.

[Schlegel]

you can see the total numbers made according to paul fox's book here: http://books.google.com/books?id=uqS...page&q&f=false

GM-2 made: 31
GM-4 129
GM-5 19
GM-6 9

[Schlegel]

Anybody got Spann's book handy and can check FON 693 F? I have an idea...

[MikeEdgerton]

Anybody got Spann's book handy and can check FON 693 F? I have an idea...

That FON shows as a batch of KM-22 mandolins from 1940. The KM-22 was an A style Kalamazoo available from 1939 to 1942.