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Thread: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

  1. #1
    Registered User shiloh's Avatar
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    Default Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    I'd appreciate your thoughts and opinions on lacquer vs. varnish, especially when it comes to tone and also "durability." I'm considering an F mandolin which is varnished (shiny). I know Adam's mandolins are generally varnished. I just don't want to invest in a finish that is "high maintenance" (ie: nicks easily, chips/peels/cracks/checks).

    Thanks.
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    They can all be high maintenance or low maintenance depending on the owner. There is a difference in tone in different finishes but some like one, others the other. It all depends what kind of lacquer and what kind of finish. There are a lot of options and generalities can be pretty useless to you. Each builder and each player will be the main factors than just lacquer or varnish.
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    Joe Vest

  3. #3

    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    I have hand-applied spirit varnish on my best mandolin. I have very thin hand-sprayed nitro lacquer on my (only) guitar. Both look nice although the varnish is shinier than the lacquer.

    After a year of daily play the guitar's finish showed a very slight clouding where my forearm rests. After a year of daily play the mandolin's finish shows no effect from where I touch it.

    That said, both finishes are somewhat delicate compared to a good catalyzed lacquer or poly finish like you'd find on many factory instruments. Even thinly applied the poly is nigh bulletproof. If staying pristine is important to you it's hard to beat the modern poly stuff.

    In a conversation recently with a noted instrument buider, I asked if he considered the ability to retouch a varnish finish after a few years of picking up the inevitable dings and wear marks to be a big advantage. He asked "If after a few decades the finish on your mandolin showed some wear, would you really want to wipe all of that away and make it look new"? I thought a moment and realized I would not. Honest wear on a working instrument is not a bad thing IMO.
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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    It's also worth pointing out that there are two distinct types of varnish finish: Spirit & Oil.
    Spirit varnish is very sensitive to chemicals including cologne/perfume, some deodorants, some bug sprays, some cosmetics, some instrument polishes, etc. Anything that contains a solvent as strong or stronger than alcohol will soften or melt spirit varnish. Spirit varnish can sometimes be damaged by too much water and often by sweat.
    Once cured oil varnish is completely impervious to water and almost all chemicals. Only something as harsh as chemical stripper is likely to harm it. Most oil varnishes are also very very heat resistant.
    Spirit varnish, on the other hand, is generally quickly and drastically softened by heat. 80 degrees in a case is enough to cause imprinting in most spirit varnishes.
    All that said, however, each new application of a spirit varnish melts into the old coat so finish repairs and touch ups are easy and limitless. Also, a French polish over Spirit Varnish is generally considered the most premium of all finishes because of it advantageous tonal properties, its classic look, and the skill and time necessary to apply it well.
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    The finish on my mandolin that I mentioned is what Ed is referring to when he says "French polish over Spirit Varnish", by the way. I was slightly nervous about it based on hearing horror stories about French polished classical guitars but 14 months in I'm not longer worried at all.
    The first man who whistled
    thought he had a wren in his mouth.
    He went around all day
    with his lips puckered,
    afraid to swallow.

    --"The First" by Wendell Berry

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    Registered User Jill McAuley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    I've got a Black mandolin too so I'm assuming it's got the same varnish finish on it as Brent's and I don't find the finish on it any more delicate than any other mandolins I've had, and like Brent, I'm not worried about a bit of honest wear that it may pick up in it's lifetime.

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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    It is my understanding that French Polish over Spirit Varnish is no wallflower. As long as one keeps it away from chemicals, excess moisture and heat, it will last for centuries. Just consider the great Cremonese violins of the 17th & 18th century, and the pre-nitro (1925?) Lloyd Loar signed F5 mandolins.
    There is no doubt that the French polish over Spirit Varnish is the crème de la crème of finishes. Its slightly enhanced susceptibility to environmental factors is greatly offset by its quality and benefits. I'd say if you can get it, you should.
    Of course, with this finish, recipe and luthier skill are paramount. The application of this finish is something perfected over a lifetime and not taught in an afternoon in a factory with a spray gun.
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
    "What a long, strange trip it's been..." - Robert Hunter
    "Life is too important to be taken seriously." - Oscar Wilde
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    Ed's view is a bit simplistic. When you talk about varnish... oil or spirit... you can be talking about 100 or more different varieties all of which have a different formula. Some will be more durable than others. Spirit is not any more fragile than oil, and in many cases it is just the opposite. Any finish... varnish or lacquer... are very prone to be damaged by chemicals. Poly finishes tend to be less problematic to chemicals, but the others can all be a real problem if exposed to moisture, sweat, bug sprays, suntan lotion, beer, etc. If your goal in life is to expose your instrument to as many different harmful chemicals, then poly is the best finish for you. However, if one exercises reasonable care with an instrument, any of the finishes will be good once fully cured. Once they are cured completely they are pretty tough and resist most reasonable daily things they may be exposed to.

    Even lacquers can differ substantially from one to another. How much plasticizer is in it? How much has it been thinned or how many coats applied. We have experimented with a number of varnish and lacquer finishes and each has a place for its use. Most of us luthiers have selected the finishes we use because we find it best for our purposes. Each luthier has a different way of applying the finish. That makes a difference in how sturdy it may be, how thick it may be, how well it may buff out, and a bunch of other issues.

    There is no perfect finish for all applications for all people in all cases. The luthier you chose will have a reason for the finish he/ she choses. If you have a question about the finish they use, they will answer your questions and be quite open with you. They are not likely to give you the formula they use for their particular finish, but they will be open about the kind of finish they use. If you like the product they build, then it is important to have confidence that they also know what finish is best for the product they build. The finish is one of the reasons their customers like the instrument they have. Just like the wood or the adhesive or frets, it's all part of the total package.
    Have a Great Day!
    Joe Vest

  9. #9
    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    Fantastic post, Joe. Thanks.

    Joe is being a bit generous when he says my view on this is simplistic. My greatly limited knowledge on this subject is based totally on what I've read and been told by builders. As a classic academician I've kept a journal on this subject, and my earlier post was based on information therein. I have no practical knowledge in this area.

    As with just about all area of luthiery, generalities are dangerous and Joe's point about the variability of the durability of finishes from builder to builder is a great point.

    For example, I would not hesitate to purchase a Pomeroy mandolin because of its nitro finish. Don & Josh at Pomeroy have worked hard to get the exact features they want in their nitro finish, and they feel very strongly that it's the best choice for their instruments.

    Finally, for those interested, here is a great series of videos showing a hand-applied finishing process on a violin:
    Old Wood Grounds, Oil Varnishes, & Natural Colours: Application Videos

    BTW, I should say that there is currently heated disagreement among violin experts as to whether the Cremonese masters (Stradivari & Guarneri, Del Jesu in particular) used oil or spirit varnish.

    This is such an interesting and complex topic.
    c.1965 Harmony Monterey H410 Mandolin
    "What a long, strange trip it's been..." - Robert Hunter
    "Life is too important to be taken seriously." - Oscar Wilde
    Think Hippie Thoughts...
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  10. #10
    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    I always avoid all generalities. ;-)
    I wonder how many people could really hear the difference between one finish and another, all other factors being equal (same builder, woods, model, strings, bracing, same player). Doubt I could hear the difference. I strongly suspect that all of those factors are far more significant than the very thin film of finish.
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  11. #11
    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    I'm certainly no expert, but I know what I like. Hans Brentrup has a fantastic finish that is "violin spirit varnish over violin oil varnish." It is very thin and delicate, but the wood moves so freely and sounds so beautiful and open. It looks subtle, elegant, and quite beautiful.

    From reading older threads on the cafe I've learned that new owners had to be very careful playing while it cured. Hans had recommendations for how long to play per day while it was still new. If I had just received a freshly finished Brentrup I don't know if I could have been that disciplined, but the results are spectacular.

    The process for each builders finish is like a secret evolving magic formula based on experience, available ingredients, and intention. I'm amazed at how they can turn out such exquisite instruments and just hope I can avoid making too much of a mark while I am the caretaker.

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  12. #12
    Registered User Andy Morton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    From my own experience with my nitro lacquer mandolin (made by a pretty well known professional luthier) and the mandolin I built myself with a "classic" French Polish finish (alcohol and lac flakes (shellac))---I have had more finish issues with the the lacquer mandolin. It has clouded in some areas where my forearm touches the body of the the mandolin--whereas the French Polished finish with shellac has held up very well (it does have some almost microscopic checking if you look closely).
    shown some
    The nitro finish instrument has a few long finish cracks.

    However, I am reasonably careful with the French Polish mandolin but not overly so...it gets played a lot. I have played it almost every day for about three years. I treat it like you would treat any other quality instrument..but don't baby it.

    Andy

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    Default Re: Varnish vs. Lacquer?

    Big Joe refinished a Mandolin for me recently and we too had a long email discussion about varnish vs. Lacquer for my mandolin. My decision was based on finances as the varnish would have been much more expensive than the lacquer and frankly while I went with the lacquer I was somewhat distressed that the instrument would have been "complete" with a varnish finish and would have sounded much better also.

    Joe had explained that it matters more on "who" does the finish than what the finish is as the lacquer could in fact be a thinner finish than the varnish.

    In the end, I know I did the right thing going with the lacquer as the beginning product was already a wonderful sounding instrument, the finish didn't deaden the sound and Joe did a magnificent job.

    PS, I have had several Varnished instruments in the pasts and my Kettler with the lacquer finish put them all to shame.

    Just my 2c.

    PS. Joe, good luck with the back surgery.

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