Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

**dcoventry** · Aug-05-2011, 12:17am

Huh. I REALLY like tabla just about anywhere, honestly. So much/many tones out of a percussion instrument.....too cool.

Please to be noting Trilok Gurtu or Zakir Hussein or Vikku could hand hang with Thile, Compton or Sizemore, methinks.

Cross polination is key for successful genetic viability...try to swim in the DEEP end of the gene pool whenever poosible.

**catmandu2** · Aug-05-2011, 12:25am

I've been digging Tabla Beat Science the past several years-- Laswell has been in on some interesting projects.. I like the "Cuba" project. I saw Zakir with several groupings and pairings over the years--including Shakti when I was 18 years (I was into guitar most of my life). Changed my mind. I started listening to Oregon all the time, after that, for several years...probably influenced me more than anything, being into acoustic music. I remember hearing on Roots in the Sky or Out of the Woods -- a double course instrument that I conceived (because I didn't knw any better) as a "Greek" bouzouki...of course, it was Colin's hammered dulcimer...which set me up for a lifetime of seeking exotcsims in multiple-courses.

After that, I came upon Dawg, 1980.

Dccoventer, I appreciate the dialogue...I should be in bed! I love tabla....being a drummer and percussionist for most of my life, I've been around tablas. But in BG? When I think in these parameters, I grab my clarinet or saxes. Please advise. Is mandolin effective here? Please educate me. I'd like to see some stuff. Aravind in India does some mando work in the Indian aesthetic. FYI, not interste din defending anything--only experiencing wjhat is

**allenhopkins** · Aug-05-2011, 12:40am

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

...I guess I'm hoping we avoid another tiresome debate over "bluegrass rules," which some find important in defining the genre, and others find inhibitive of some interesting possible developments. Most Cafe´people who care about such things, have already clearly staked out their positions on the subject.

Quoting myself (oh, the ego!) from Post #14. But of course, we're having this same old debate. If it's not drums, it's footwear, or harmonicas, or "nice suits" vs. jeans and tees. Never going to end, never going to be solved. Personally, I'd sorta think that playing a gig in flip-flops was a tad too informal, but not a deal-breaker.

If drums work musically (and this was what the OP's initial post was about, wasn't it?), then by all means, let's have 'em. If they bury the mandolin, or are played tastelessly, without sensitivity to the Appalachian-based "hillbilly" music that bluegrass essentially is, then let's kick 'em out.

But let's make it a musical decision, about what we like or don't like in terms of the sound, rather than whether drums conform to some carved-in-stone stereotype of what bluegrass is, or ain't. Bill Monroe broke the "rules" of pre-bluegrass string band music, and established a whole new genre. He's depicted as being accepting of other musicians and musical styles, from DeFord Bailey to Elvis Presley -- not that he wanted himself or his band to sound like them, but that he recognized their validity as other means of musical expression. His hostility was largely reserved for those musicians closest to his style, whom he thought were "stealing" his invention, and failing to give proper recognition of his innovative stature.

I think musicians can show respect and love for traditional bluegrass, and still experiment with instrumental and stylistic innovations based on that respect and knowledge. Not all bluegrass audiences, or other musicians, will agree with these innovations; not all these innovations will work musically. But let's not dismiss them out-of-hand because they don't conform to a 65-year-old archetype of "what bluegrass is." And, personally, I'd be more concerned with how a musician sounds than how he looks -- well, within reason...

**catmandu2** · Aug-05-2011, 12:42am

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

But let's make it a musical decision, ...

Here hear!

Allen has it cooled off in the east? It's amazing here...water, warmth,

**Willie** · Aug-05-2011, 1:06pm

First, Vince was sitting on a bar stool while on the satge performing, next I have never heard of Tabla, don`t know it that is a band, an instrument or a pair of shoes.....Wearing flip flops/sandals/thongs is comfortable but what I was meaning is that what kind of impression does it make with an audience that is maybe seeing a bluegrass show for the first time, I know jeans with the knees torn out seems to be accepted now days and what looks like dirty tee shirts in some bands....If that what you like to wear or see thats fine, I can`t see getting on stage with a nice clean polished mandolin or guitar worth upwards of 100 grand and wearing clothes that some think belong in a rag bin....

Allen, I have been to shows where I saw three or four people come through the door and saw the band dressed like a bunch of bums and they didn`t even stop to hear what they sounded like, they made some comment about their dress code and turned and left, I stayed because they were a good band, so what I am trying to point out is that bluegrass needs to get as many new supporters as we can get so a first impression sometimes is needed, a star like Vince gill might not have to worry about it but Vince make his millions playing country so what does he care anyway....He said if he had kept playing bluegrass he wouldn`t own the many things that he has now like his home and many instruments because bluegrass money isn`t what it is compared to country, his words, not mine....

I promise to be finished with this subject and do say I am sorry for bringing up the dress code thing, it`s just that I would like to see bluegrass bands dress a little neater to make a better impression on the new audiences....Just like I don`t like to see them staggering and slurring on stage, having a good time is one thing but not at the expense of others....

Enjoy it anyway you like, drums and flip flops......Willie

**catmandu2** · Aug-05-2011, 1:29pm

I was only being facetious Willie (about the tabla)--I don't think you'll care much for this.

But these young flip-flopped hempsters love their folk-trance!

**allenhopkins** · Aug-05-2011, 1:33pm

Originally Posted by Willie

...Enjoy it anyway you like, drums and flip flops...

And Willie, enjoy it any way you like it! I really do respect your opinion, and these occasional discussions. I know a lot of people who feel the way you do, and really prefer the "traditional" look and sound of bluegrass as it was played 60 years ago. And I love that sound myself, used to try to play it a bit, and am more likely to listen to the Stanley Brothers than the New Grass Revival. I just don't want to excommunicate bands because they dress like hippies,or have a harmonica or a cello or a snare drum in the mix. And, by the way, a tabla is a hand drum -- no sticks -- used in music from India and other South Asian countries.

Catmandu2, it's mid-80's F here, and we had a day and a half of pretty steady rain; my lawn's gone from beige to tentative green.

Someone brought up Ernie Newton, Nashville bass player who "got around" the Opry prohibition on drums ("Keep it down-to-earth, boys!") by putting a pad on the upper bout of his bass fiddle and picking with a drumstick or brush in his hand to produce a bit of percussion. Tried to find a YouTube vid of him doing it, but only found a couple where you can see the pad on the instrument, but he's not playing in that style.

**Mike Bunting** · Aug-05-2011, 1:34pm

Originally Posted by dcoventry

Cross polination is key for successful genetic viability...try to swim in the DEEP end of the gene pool whenever poosible.

As a purebred livestock breeder, I'd point out that the highest degree of hybrid vigour is obtained when two well defined gene pools are crossed for the first time. The genetically well defined characteristics of purebred animals are very necessary to get the strengths of a first generation cross. Subsequent crossing of following generations of offspring result in watering down of the original characteristics that were bred for and hybrid vigour falls.

**dcoventry** · Aug-05-2011, 1:37pm

Mike,

Excellent points, and interesting, too! Genetics was a true
Love for me.

**catmandu2** · Aug-05-2011, 1:38pm

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

Catmandu2, it's mid-80's F here, and we had a day and a half of pretty steady rain; my lawn's gone from beige to tentative green.

Yay!

btw, I've heard tabla used effectively also in English and Scandinavian folk music...and of course a variety of acoustic "world" fusion a la Oregon, Trilok, zakir et al

Not to bend the discussion again, but communicating with Aravind about the disparate approaches between East and West...brings to mind that Indian instruments are natural for blending in other idioms--our ear accepts the blended instrumentation easily--since these are customarily employed in a lyrical style in their indigenous forms.

**Mike Bunting** · Aug-05-2011, 1:40pm

Originally Posted by dcoventry

Mike,

Excellent points, and interesting, too! Genetics was a true
Love for me.

So maybe we need Willie and others to keep the "purebred" bluegrass alive.

**rico mando** · Aug-05-2011, 1:47pm

Originally Posted by Mike Bunting

So maybe we need Willie and others to keep the "purebred" bluegrass alive.

So true Mike ,because Bluegrass is dead .

**catmandu2** · Aug-05-2011, 1:49pm

so is jazz (or so it's been alleged)

**DrEugeneStrickland** · Aug-05-2011, 2:17pm

The Gentleman in this clip of Grandpa Jones was named Ernie Newton and he played both bass and drum on several Bluegrass recordings including many by Bill Monroe

**catmandu2** · Aug-05-2011, 2:21pm

Drums sound kinda good in some skiffle. The off-camera guitarist almost gets it going at 1'32"

**DrEugeneStrickland** · Aug-05-2011, 2:26pm

Hard to beat this upright/ percussion technique on the Bill Monroe Recordings of the 1950's with Newton as well the early recordings of The Osborne Brothers with Red Allen, Lightening Chance was using this same technique... these are recordings every hardcore Bluegrass fan must own!!!

**Paul Cowham** · Aug-05-2011, 4:57pm

Originally Posted by catmandu2

Yay!

btw, I've heard tabla used effectively also in English and Scandinavian folk music...and of course a variety of acoustic "world" fusion a la Oregon, Trilok, zakir et al

Not to bend the discussion again, but communicating with Aravind about the disparate approaches between East and West...brings to mind that Indian instruments are natural for blending in other idioms--our ear accepts the blended instrumentation easily--since these are customarily employed in a lyrical style in their indigenous forms.

Here is an example of tabla and drum kit being used in Irish trad music - there are 3 percussion players, (btw I was at this gig

), obviously this isn't bluegrass and there is no mando but Irish music does share some roots with bluegrass.
here is a link, the embed isn't working
http://vimeo.com/17084932

**TEE** · Aug-05-2011, 4:57pm

Originally Posted by allenhopkins

Someone brought up Ernie Newton, Nashville bass player who "got around" the Opry prohibition on drums ("Keep it down-to-earth, boys!") by putting a pad on the upper bout of his bass fiddle and picking with a drumstick or brush in his hand to produce a bit of percussion. Tried to find a YouTube vid of him doing it, but only found a couple where you can see the pad on the instrument, but he's not playing in that style.

Here is Newton with Monroe playing the drum attachment.

**catmandu2** · Aug-05-2011, 5:16pm

Originally Posted by Paul Cowham

Here is an example of tabla and drum kit being used in Irish trad music -

Well of course it could be argued whether this is Irish "trad"!

I've played udu drum (claypot) in irish music--has the "dum-tek" but not the tonal variety of tabla. Tabla (and banyan) really is the most versatile of drums. Maybe Bill would have used it...if there'd been more of them around then...?