Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

[catmandu2]

There is, to me, a bit of an ongoing problem at taking a particular snapshot -- say, of Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys in 1946 -- and saying that's the bluegrass template, and everything else isn't bluegrass.

Well, it makes historical re-creation easier..

And it also makes, for those inclined, matters more easily handled. For example, if we have a "blueprint," we can see things easliy in b&w terms. So, for example, if God wore azure wingtips, and so on...

There is utility.

[catmandu2]

Well, the Osbornes, Jim & Jesse, and Jimmy Martin took a shot at using percussion, and I can't question their bluegrass credentials. And I'd have a hard time with someone questioning Lawson's, as well.

But perhaps slightly more relevant to the matter at hand--than celestial footwear (and its alternatives)--I, knowing very little about trad bluegrass--its practitioners and adherents--venture to guess that efforts to expand on sound using elements of percussion and what not were attempts to expand the idiom into broader musical realms and commercial opportunities.

I wonder how much motivation is by aesthetic choice, and how much by commercial option? (I had the same question regarding the Del McCoury-PHJB project)

[Ben Milne]

Yes, this is really it. But, re rock'n roll, I'd be open to hearing an example. Many applications of mandos in rock/pop-type music--and they always add nice textures. But rock'n roll (a traditional concept, much like trad BG) is more defined. All you need is drums and guitar, maybe piano and maybe sax. Mando could replace guitar in this context, but why?

Yup, understood. I had taken rock n roll in a broader sense of the word...

[catmandu2]

Yup, understood. I had taken rock n roll in a broader sense of the word...

Well, I think the point is moot anyway--just like trad BG: Haley and Fats and Little Richard and Jerry Lee and Elvis and Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry defined a period in Rock'n roll, but it has gone on to mean so many other things. Especially with R&B, what hasn't been tried? Laird played the trump card of Levon. I believe there's likely some mandolins mixed in with bari saxes on Levon's studio albums--exploiting rural folk aesthetic in a mixture of urbane sophisitcation and the global enterprise of R&B. For my money, this is more interesting listening than Del and PHJB.

Someone plays Hendrix tributes on mandolin. This is interesting for the novelty, but of limited musical necessity.

[John McGann]

....I have some friends that went to Summersville a few weeks ago and they said that they didn`t enjoy Doyle and Quicksilver ... maybe he just uses it to help the band members stay in time

Doyle's band used to rehearse with a metronome in the living room, and walk to different rooms of the house still playing...if when they returned, someone was out of time, they kept at it until the time was tight.

He ain't using a drum because his musicians are weak.

[dcoventry]

Doyle's band used to rehearse with a metronome in the living room, and walk to different rooms of the house still playing...if when they returned, someone was out of time, they kept at it until the time was tight.

He ain't using a drum because his musicians are weak.

That is just so, so cool. That's some heavy lifting for sure, and I bet it works very well.

Nice.

[Mike Bunting]

Doyle's band used to rehearse with a metronome in the living room, and walk to different rooms of the house still playing...if when they returned, someone was out of time, they kept at it until the time was tight.

He ain't using a drum because his musicians are weak.

I'd heard that and it sure was evident at the performance I saw on Sunday. It sure makes the music sparkle.

[mandroid]

I'm not a big fan of it either.

neither drums nor bluegrass?

any how if you get a chance to play music with your friends and one of them happens to be a drummer ,
you enjoy it .. just toss the style labels in the bin, and have a good time..

[Willie Poole]

I didn`t mean to imply that drums should not be played in bluegrass....I am saying they aren`t needed, I also used to do the walking around bit to improve my timing, my brother would turn on a tape recorder and I would walk around the house and he would turn off the sound and then when I got back to the room where he was he would bring it back up to see where I was with my timing, nothing new about that...One thing wrong with that is I have listened to many Flatt and Scruggs records where they lose their timing, some of us have an ear that is too good at times....

If you enjoy hearing drums in bluegrass thats swell, I just don`t think they are needed, that being said I don`t think a band with seven instruments are needed either so take your shots at me for saying that....Too many instruments can kill a bands sound....Guitar, fiddle, mandolin, banjo, dobro, and a bass...why would you need a drum also? Some of you rave about how good Skaggs and Tony Rice sounded with just the two of them and if that is the case which do you prefer, them or a seven piece band? A lot of bands do add extra instruments for recordings and then show up on stage with a four piece band....Some of them even have two guitars.....I never heard Big Mon when he had an accordian and I wonder if that was used on all of his stage appearences?

And about wearing flip-flops on stage at The Birchmere, The management won`t allow any taliking while a band is playing but will allow flip-flops while playing on the stage? I bet they wouldn`t let you in if you were wearing them as a customer....I`ll have to go over and try it and see if they will....I just think someone like Vince would dress a little better, maybe not, it`s not a big deal, and don`t really bother me, now days just about anything goes....Maybe his flip-flops cost over one grand like some of the pickers shirts are said to cost....

[dcoventry]

And about wearing flip-flops on stage at The Birchmere, The management won`t allow any taliking while a band is playing but will allow flip-flops while playing on the stage? I bet they wouldn`t let you in if you were wearing them as a customer....I`ll have to go over and try it and see if they will....I just think someone like Vince would dress a little better, maybe not, it`s not a big deal, and don`t really bother me, now days just about anything goes....Maybe his flip-flops cost over one grand like some of the pickers shirts are said to cost....

Willie,

Was it hot in there? Maybe he get's sweaty feet? Maybe his toes hurt? Maybe he has a callous? Maybe a fun gave him the flip-flops to honor a deceased relative? Maybe those were his lucky pair, and it helps him play better, and you got teh benefit of that? You'd be angry if he didn't weear them and played a bad show? If the Birchmere didn't let him wear them, and he played poorly 'cause he was angry about being uncomfortable, you might see thing differently? Who knows.

More importantly, why the heck do you care?

He's not a soleless monster.

[Mike Bunting]

Willie,

Maybe he has a callous?

More importantly, why the heck do you care?

He's not a soleless monster.

Why do care to keep answering Willie? I don't always agree, but WTH, he's just making conversation. By the way, it's callus, not callous which describes an attitude. I care about the language.

[dcoventry]

Talking back and forth IS conversation. But I know what you mean.

[Mike Bunting]

[Laird]

Was it hot in there? Maybe he get's sweaty feet? Maybe his toes hurt? Maybe he has a callous? Maybe a fun gave him the flip-flops to honor a deceased relative? Maybe those were his lucky pair, and it helps him play better, and you got teh benefit of that? You'd be angry if he didn't weear them and played a bad show?

Maybe it's my time following String Cheese or playing Franti songs, but I always play barefoot (unless it's too darned cold). Nothing like playing barefoot on a Persian rug! Gets my feet moving, hence my body moving, and makes it easier to find the groove that the dancers are feeling.

[i-vibe]

[QUOTE=Willie;953470]One thing wrong with that is I have listened to many Flatt and Scruggs records where they lose their timing, some of us have an ear that is too good at times....

QUOTE]

not trying to pick a fight...but i think many people focus a little too strongly on tempo when talking about timing. yeah, of course tempo is a big part of the equation but when i think about "time"...i'm also thinking about feel, groove, where people put their emphasis.... playing on, before a little after the beat.

speeding up or slowing down (within reason...i'm not talking HUUUUGE chronological leaps) has never bothered me as long as everyone is on the same page. imo click tracks and pro tools quantitizing everything to the Nth degree so things line up squeaky clean can suck the breath right out of a groove.

yeah, someone w metronomic time that never falters is a talent of sorts i suppose....just not one anywhere close to the top of musical traits that get my ankles hard.

my three cents.

[MnRoss]

I've been playing for 27 years in a acoustic band (Bluegrass, Old Time, Latin, Country Blues ect) in the Twin Cities (Mn) area and we have a drummer. By the way he is a great drummer which makes a huge difference. He plays a full set but mostly just snare, bass drum and high hat with a bit of cymbal and tom thrown in. He's also a guitar player and song writer so he knows the sound and what to do with it. I just can't say enough about how much fun it is to have a killer drummer to keep things really steady. It's never to much and always just right and the songs just kick and hold the beat so well. I can chop and be heard if I want but I also have the freedom to get away from the chop and have rhythmic chord/double stop fun and really drive/groove a song. It's always there it's always perfect and I love playing with a drummer. Again he has to be a good drummer to make it work. Our drummer's nick name is Trax, when he can't make a gig we book for some reason we cancel because we've tried others he's recommended and it doesn't work. He has a BA degree in percussion by the way which probably helps a bit.

[Willie Poole]

Back not too many years ago bluegrass pickers had a rep of being a bunch of drunks when playing, I have busted my butt trying to show people now days that we are a caring group of people so when I comment on how some one dresses I am stating that he isn`t doin very much to help make us look like we really care...I think that a first impression is made when the audiences look at the way a performer is dressed not how he is playing, that come later...Why do you think Doyle wears those nice suits and boots and his band members dress real nice....Vince was sitting on a bar stool with his feet propped on one of the rungs and the flip flops stood out like a sore thumb....I know most of you think differently than I do and that is your right and maybe you just don`t give a d...m what any body else thinks about bluegrass and how it is played and that is also your right but just because you don`t think like I do don`t just jump in here and run me down on mostly everything I post...

As far as comparing timing with tempo I was only say that I have in the past walked around the house like Doyle does to see if could keep my timing/tempo perfect even though I couldn`t hear the music, I have had great comments that my timing/tempo was as good as it gets and a lot of bands that recorded with the older tape machines sound like they miss a beat every now and then and I believe it was because the equipment in those days was not as good as we now have....When listening to some of the old bands try and keep time/tempo with them by tapping on something and you will see what I mean....Why not just use an electromic rhythm master and you wouldn`t have to pay a drummer

[Mike Bunting]

Maybe Vince was not "performing" but at the Birchmere kicking back and having a cool one. I think that he deserves some downtime, he's not always on stage.

[journeybear]

You must have missed or forgotten this, from Willie's first post to this thread ...

... Vince Gill put on a show here at The Birchmere and it was all bluegrass.....He said that is where his roots were and he wanted to show people just what bluegrass was....BTW, he wore flip-flops instead of shoes while on the stage ...

I assume the bar scene was later ...

[catmandu2]

Hey Willie...FWIW I happen to agree with you on this one (about drums in BG). I'm sure there are just as many among us who feel the way you do, as not.

Although I confess to being laid back and wearing sandals 90% of the time...my grandmother always implored us to wear shoes--alleging that we would become "gypsies" if we went barefooted.

Should have probably listened to her more..

[rico mando]

In Australia they do not call them flip flops . they are referred to as thongs . how often do you get to see vince gil in his thong

[journeybear]

This thread has really flopped! But fortunately, The Birchmere is not in Australia, so Willie was spared. However, I suppose Amy Grant may have her own take on this ... but that's their business ...

[rico mando]

I all ways thought a flip flop was what our politicians did after an election ?

[dcoventry]

OK, NOW we're hitting stride, my brothers. Ah, I can feel the love....whoops, didn't mean to touch on that....

[catmandu2]

Willie, we know you don't like drums in BG. How about tabla?

There's a local band that plays folk-trance...mandolin, bass, and ... tabla. Well, it isn't bluegrass, I know that much. I must be getting old; I found myself thinking...

We're alawys changing our perspective around here--my family is kinda moody. But one thing we benefit from this is the stimulation of seeing phenomena in as much array as we can muster. If nothing else in this life, it lets us see a variety of ways, whys, and whatevers. Whatver you can say about having dwelled here...I'd bet that one of the great atributes is having seen a lot of things. I wonder if there's a point when we think we;ve seen enough? I know that I've been around some people who seem to experience this. The other thing I learned is that the one thing that comples us most is challenging our cogntiion, whatever that means...

Whatever...but I mean, I love the flower in its idealized splendor--it's perfect, in that moment of peak experience. Then the lighterning storm comes along and rips its pedals and scatters among the dist and debris. Everything is reformed. There isn't really a stasis any more than the moment of perfection, which is all we really need