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Thread: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

  1. #26
    Registered User dcoventry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobraman428 View Post
    I've got to get something off my chest. Sure to be a sensitive subject for bluegrass fans but... a drummer in a bluegrass band in MY opinion covers up the mandolin chop. Leave the drums for country and rock etc.. I recently went to see probably my all time favorite bluegrass act (DL&Q) and have not been totally sold on the idea of a snare drum. Mr. Lawson has in my opinion the best mandolin chop of all time and I absolutely love his Gibson Victorian mandolin but never really got past the drums covering it up.
    I was guilty of straying a bit far from the OP.

    Maybe DL wants to do something different with the mando other than chop? Perhaps he views his time spent playing could be better spent on melodic support other than rhythmic support? If he wants his chop to be heard, he can arrange to do it, I'm sure.
    Last edited by dcoventry; Aug-03-2011 at 5:31am. Reason: Back to the actual question/comment
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Drums in bluegrass... useless as teats on a boar hog (except in the band below)

    Last edited by johnhgayjr; Aug-03-2011 at 6:04am.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    As with all things, done well, drums are good, done poorly, not so much. As synonymous as chopping is with bluegrass mandolin, it's pretty amazing how much Bill Monroe didn't chop all the time. Even though when he did it, he did it exceptionally well.

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mendel View Post
    As synonymous as chopping is with bluegrass mandolin, it's pretty amazing how much Bill Monroe didn't chop all the time.
    A deep listen to the original Flatt and Scruggs era Blue Grass Boys reveals the depth of Joe's statement. The Chop really seems to be a later development that got adopted by a lot of other folks, but the evolution of The Blue Grass Music as played by Bill Monroe and his bands is really very interesting; the facts of what happened in that music, including the swing influences of walking bass and the fiddlers from Chubby Wise to Kenny Baker proves that many a Bluegrass Music Police Officer™ may have beliefs that are not actually "traditional" in the truest sense of the word...

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by dcoventry View Post
    The man is on a roll.

    I think bass players might have a gripe, too. Check out T. Michael Coleman's song he does with the Seldom Scene about being a bass player called And On Bass.

    This isn't it, but he's so cool it don't matter none.
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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhgayjr View Post
    Drums in bluegrass... useless as teats on a boar hog (except in the band below)
    Great example of good use of a drum in bluegrass. A single snare drum in this context works really well; a full kit would have been overkill. (Worth noting there is no mandolin, thus no conflict - except with the SPBGMA band contest rules, qv) Love the way the drummer checks to make sure he's in the right key. Nice arrangement; could use a choreographer, but then again, this is just fine the way it is. My hat's off to their haberdasher - these guys get my vote for worst hats in bluegrass.
    Last edited by journeybear; Aug-03-2011 at 9:35am.
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  7. #32
    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Drums must be carefully used in other genres as well, such as Cajun music. Though in that case, it is the guitar and the bass chords on accordion that are the main rhythm instruments. The other is the triangle. Now that might fit in nicely with bluegrass. It is also harder to play than you might think.
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  8. #33
    Registered User dcoventry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhgayjr View Post
    Drums in bluegrass... useless as teats on a boar hog (except in the band below)

    That was funny as heck. I truly love it when BG spoofs this modern stuff. I do it all the time. For example:

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    Registered User Jeff Oxley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Caught the David Grisman Sextet and Floydfest last Sunday, and thought George Marsh blended his drum kit exquisitely with Dawg's mando, Matt Eckle's flute, etc. Certainly didn't detract from anything (IMHO) in the least.

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. E View Post
    Drums must be carefully used in other genres as well, such as Cajun music. Though in that case, it is the guitar and the bass chords on accordion that are the main rhythm instruments. The other is the triangle. Now that might fit in nicely with bluegrass. It is also harder to play than you might think.
    "Cajun" music is still a dance idiom, so the drum(s) serve a function. BG-type music so far as I know doesn't concern dance much these days, so drums are extraneous, really--and one reason why they sound so "weird" in this music. IMO, drums are ineffective (essential, or otherwise serving the music in a meaningful way) really only if playing dance music, unless of course you're playing art music a la jazz, symphonic, etc. when they're deployed instrumentally. A general and sweeping premise, but one that seems consistent, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Milne View Post
    ... perhaps a more apt title would be The mandolin chop gets lost/ hidden when played in bluegrass flavored country music

    Personally I believe the mandolin can be very effective in Rock and/or Roll.
    Yes, this is really it. But, re rock'n roll, I'd be open to hearing an example. Many applications of mandos in rock/pop-type music--and they always add nice textures. But rock'n roll (a traditional concept, much like trad BG) is more defined. All you need is drums and guitar, maybe piano and maybe sax. Mando could replace guitar in this context, but why?

  11. #36

    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    ineffective (essential, or otherwise serving the music in a meaningful way)
    oops, mean "effective"


    Don't mean to rile anyone up. Just speaking from my aesthetic POV

    I realize folks like to experiment--which is fine. But for me, there's far less latitude in addressing some acoustic-based idioms (especially straight time idioms like BG) before I experience the extraneous and redundant.

    Jazz was a dance idiom. These days, the drums are as apt to not play time in the idiom; they found something useful (meaningful) to do in this instance.

    Yes, drums (snare) can add nice percussive elements in BG-type music (I do this often as a drummer myself--it's a gig). But as a listener when I hear drums in BG-type music, I usually head the other way. But yeah, if getting into jazzy stuff--more sophisticated use of time like Grisman sextet, et al.--sure, drums can add something.

    I think looking at the Del McCoury-Preservation Hall Jazz Band project is instructive in this regard. For me, imposing BG onto a danceable back beat changes the music fundamentally. I did not hear much of Del and the boys doing their thing--only playing along PHJB--because the idioms are fundamentally different in rhythmic sense and style. There is some commonality, but this is beneath the surface. There's not room for a drum or percussion element to enhance the music in BG, for the most part, because of its rhythmic foundation. Changing this foundation--doing something significant with the rhythm, for me, fundamentally changes the music.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Aug-03-2011 at 12:09pm.

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    When you think about the instruments in a BG band they all are trying imitate the drums, mandolin = snare, rhythm guitar = symbol, bass = kick drum, banjo = drum roll and fiddle = top hat (when the mandolin is leading). So when you think about this topic from that point of view, drums are always being heard in BG. So a drum in the Band is repeating only the mandolin

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    What Will said

    Willie, where are ye????

    Won't rehash all of the arguments...I like good music, regardless of the genre, and if Doyle and the boys are using drums effectively, then more power to them. But, I can see how true fans of what is now defined as traditional bluegrass could object, regardless of whether that definition is historically accurate.

    Also agree that a really good drummer is difficult to find. One that can play and also plays tastefully, blending into the mix, is an even rarer bird!
    Chuck

  14. #39

    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by CES View Post
    One that can play and also plays tastefully..
    Which often amounts to what and when NOT to play,

    The discussion of what is effective is always dicey, and of course subjective, but I find compelling as it usually pertains more to music, than not.

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    Capt. E Capt. E's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    [QUOTE=catmandu2;953078]"Cajun" music is still a dance idiom, so the drum(s) serve a function. BG-type music so far as I know doesn't concern dance much these days, so drums are extraneous, really--and one reason why they sound so "weird" in this music. IMO, drums are ineffective (essential, or otherwise serving the music in a meaningful way) really only if playing dance music, unless of course you're playing art music a la jazz, symphonic, etc. when they're deployed instrumentally. A general and sweeping premise, but one that seems consistent, IMO.

    I agree that drums drive dance music, which is not really what bluegrass is. I was kind of stretching the comparison with Cajun music. Of course I am referring to "French Cajun/Creole" music, not zydeco which uses drums just about 100% of the time. Of course, while cajun/creole and bluegrass are both sit-on-the-porch music, either of them might add drums if playing a big dance hall. Dancing seems to be the key.
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. E View Post
    Dancing seems to be the key.
    Yeah, that's something I keep coming back to. It's a pretty simple formula, but I've found it holds up pretty well.

    Having a drummer in the band makes it easier for everyone else--as Bluman mentions, in a BG outfit everyone is holding the time together (one thing that I find particularly enjoyable about BG). Add a drummer, and everyone can ease off if they want. When a band employs a drummer, it often seems to me they are either trying to move the people in the back rows (which is fine, but at what cost? Electric guitars, P bass, drums and everything else hold up much better here than acoustic instruments...why not go all in? Folk-trance is becoming sooooo popular), or the band is trying to make it easier. Again, fine, but often less compelling.

    I'm not speaking of jazzy approaches like Grisman et al. where the drums are actually saying something...just straight time folk music. Give me a triangle, bones, hambone...but not a stick drum. This is like giving your grandmother the keys to your ferrari to drive three blocks to pick up cat food

    (perhaps not a perfect analogy...Pete probably lets his grandmother do this!)

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Reminds me of an 85 y.o. man I know who just bought a new Cadillac CTS Coupe. What a waste of 550 hp.
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Milne View Post
    Personally I believe the mandolin can be very effective in Rock and/or Roll.
    Agreed, agreed, agreed. (See the Band's version of "Atlantic City.")

    Last edited by Laird; Aug-03-2011 at 5:13pm. Reason: Add clip

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Or this example: mando, accordian, drums, AND Sam Bush. Bring it on, all night long.


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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laird View Post
    Agreed, agreed, agreed. (See the Band's version of "Atlantic City.")
    Is this rock'n roll? I don't know.

    For me, rock'n roll, in a nutshell, is dance music. This is where we can begin to differentiate. Lots of examples of great folk/acoustic rock, but.... You could slow dance to it, and I guess you could rock'n roll a little like that. But man, jazz, rock'n ROLL!

    This has the rock, but not the roll...if you know what I mean

    For example, if you went into a club out here and played that in a "classic rock" band, they would want you to speed it up so they could rock'n roll to it...

    But otherwise, you got me Laird! You exposed my vulnerable underbelly of love for Levon, and Rick and Garth and Rick an Robbie. I give.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Aug-03-2011 at 5:40pm.

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. E View Post
    Reminds me of an 85 y.o. man I know who just bought a new Cadillac CTS Coupe. What a waste of 550 hp.
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    I`m here Chuck, just don`t want to post while I am stewing over such a dumb question....I like the one about an old man buying a Cadillac, a waste of 550 HP....I have some friends that went to Summersville a few weeks ago and they said that they didn`t enjoy Doyle and Quicksilver because of the drum, I have seen him once using one drum and couldn`t even hear it so if you can`t hear it what good does it do, maybe he just uses it to help the band members stay in time and don`t care if it is coming out through the sound system or not....Myself, I WOULD NEVER EVEN THINK OF USING A DRUM, or a triangle or a flute as one person mentioned....

    I wish a lot of you would understand that bluegrass is something thst should be left alone and played like it was origionally played and kept that way...Sometimes we all say I wish it was like the good old days, so lets keep bluegrass like it was in the good old days....

    I see where Vince Gill put on a show here at The Birchmere and it was all bluegrass.....He said that is where his roots were and he wanted to show people just what bluegrass was....BTW, he wore flip-flops instead of shoes while on the stage, now that I don`t understand, most places say "no shoes, no service"....BUT.....If you are Vince Gill I guess you can get away with that...I couldn`t, I`ll bet on that...

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    Registered User dcoventry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post

    I wish a lot of you would understand that bluegrass is something thst should be left alone and played like it was origionally played and kept that way...Sometimes we all say I wish it was like the good old days, so lets keep bluegrass like it was in the good old days....

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    The reason you don't see drums in bluegrass more often is the cost to carry an extra man. When the big guys like Osbornes, Jim&Jesse, Jimmy Martin, etc were feeling rich they carried a drummer with them. When times got tough the drummer was the first to go. With Doyle buying dozens of $10,000 coats from Nashville's Tailor to the Stars Manuel, he's feeling pretty rich these days.
    I've been in many bands that had a snare drummer and one with a full drum set and it sure made it easy on me to keep the time on the mandolin chop. When it was time for my break the drum kept the time perfect. Most of Monroe's early recordings had a snare drum tap provided by his bass man Ernie Newton. Ernie attached a drum head to the side of his bass and held a drum brush in his right hand and played all the bass note while keeping time on the drum head. An amazing feat that you don't see these days. Lightin' Chance also had the same set up on many rockabilly recordings.

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    Default Re: Drums in Bluegrass music cover up the mandolin chop IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie View Post
    ...I wish a lot of you would understand that bluegrass is something thst should be left alone and played like it was origionally played and kept that way...Sometimes we all say I wish it was like the good old days, so lets keep bluegrass like it was in the good old days...I see where Vince Gill put on a show here at The Birchmere and it was all bluegrass...BTW, he wore flip-flops instead of shoes while on the stage, now that I don`t understand, most places say "no shoes, no service"...
    Well, the Osbornes, Jim & Jesse, and Jimmy Martin took a shot at using percussion, and I can't question their bluegrass credentials. And I'd have a hard time with someone questioning Lawson's, as well. But, besides the cost of the "extra" musician, I'm sure that the unwillingness of many bluegrass audiences to accept the use of a drum, had something to do with the omission of drums from their "standard" lineups.

    I wasn't aware that the bluegrass "rules" extended to footwear! There used to be a lot of resistance to jeans-and-tee-shirts bands -- Willie's chimed in on the subject in the past -- but I never heard a critique of band shoes.

    There is, to me, a bit of an ongoing problem at taking a particular snapshot -- say, of Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys in 1946 -- and saying that's the bluegrass template, and everything else isn't bluegrass. Bill Monroe in 1942 sounded different -- with clawhammer banjo and accordion, perhaps -- and in 1963, with Keith and Rowan and Richard Greene. I love traditional bluegrass, but I don't resent those who try to make marginal changes. Some work, some don't. Bill Monroe didn't play mandolin like Jesse McReynolds, but I don't hear bluegrass fans saying "cross-picking ain't bluegrass!" Electric bass, "chromatic" banjo, lead guitar, woman musicians, pickups on instruments -- you name it, someone's tried it, and someone's said, "that ain't bluegrass!"

    Ah well.
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