Fishman SA220 (Fishman SoloAmp) report

[Tim2723]

You might just try re-listing it. There may well be some renewed interest of late.

[allenhopkins]

I think there's a conventional wisdom of "column PA = Bose," which makes Fishman the "off" brand. Not to knock the Bose products, which from all reports and experience are excellent, but I've been very pleased with my Fishman.

[Tim2723]

I think you're spot on Allen. While Fishman followed Bose in the marketplace, it's actually the Fishman concept that's being cloned by everyone.

[foldedpath]

I think you're spot on Allen. While Fishman followed Bose in the marketplace, it's actually the Fishman concept that's being cloned by everyone.

Those two systems may get the most mention on forums like this one, where musicians own their own small PA rigs, but I think it's worth pointing out that these ideas aren't new. What you're seeing is just the entry level or "prosumer" type of gear that exists in a larger context of compact PA systems.

Renkus Heinz has had their modular IC Live on the market for years, and there are other systems out there like the FBT Vertus. These systems are not cheap, which is one reason why they're not often mentioned on forums where amateur and semi-pro musicians discuss gear and bang-for-buck is important. The distribution network for these systems is also thin on the ground in the USA, and they don't have the advertising budget of Bose or Fishman, which is another reason you don't hear more about them.

Personally, I'd be a little worried about repair service on some of these European systems, and the pricing is out of my current budget. Also I don't need that much sub reinforcement. But the designs are interesting!

[almeriastrings]

there are other systems out there like the FBT Vertus.

I've had the pleasure of using a system based on those... Four columns and matching subs. VERY nice. The columns themselves are remarkably similar sounding to the Fishman's, by the way, if used without the subs. They have quite a bit more power, and can get seriously loud though. Really loud. No breakup either. They are not too expensive over here, anyway... the towers are under $1K each and the subs (which use 8" drivers) are remarkably compact for the power they offer (600W RMS and 129dB), those also run to well under $1K each. Very expandable, great sounding system. If I ever needed to get anything more than the 2 X SA220's I use now, they would be top of the list. I liked them very much. Just don't need that size of rig or power for anything I'm doing currently.

[Tim2723]

Aren't the line array/subwoofer systems even older than that though? I recall seeing them in theaters as a boy. They were not anything that could be packed up into your car of course, but the concept is quite old I believe. When we talk about the Bose and Fishman products we of course mean small, portable, affordable equipment for the weekend warrior types. In forty years playing, I don't recall ever seeing anyone with this sort of technology in the trunk of their car before Bose hit the market with their version, at least not on this side of the Pond. I think it might be important too to mention that the Fishman 'tower' and the Bose 'tower' are themselves quite different in key aspects.

I'm not convinced we should call them line arrays or articulated arrays. The Fishman in particular strikes me as a combination of the column speaker, powered speaker, acoustic amplifier, and tripod mount concepts that have all been tried and true. I do give them credit for combining all those ideas very effectively in a small affordable package.

[foldedpath]

Regarding the FBT system:

I've had the pleasure of using a system based on those... Four columns and matching subs. VERY nice. The columns themselves are remarkably similar sounding to the Fishman's, by the way, if used without the subs.

That's good to know, thanks! I was wondering how the columns performed without the subs, since the groups I play with now only go as low as acoustic guitar, no bass or drums.

If it weren't for the fact that our current QSC K10's are working fine for what we do, I'd be sorely tempted to try the FBT system without subs. Mainly for the low-profile look at wedding and corporate party type gigs. Columns don't look as scary as conventional cabinets on speaker stands, although I'd still want to raise them fairly high for even room coverage.

Aren't the line array/subwoofer systems even older than that though? I recall seeing them in theaters as a boy. They were not anything that could be packed up into your car of course, but the concept is quite old I believe.

The theory was developed in the late 50's, but I think the first actual application was in the mid 90's with big, flown concert systems. It's now basically the standard way of deploying big systems in fixed installations or the big tours, for even audience coverage. What you remember as a boy (and I do too) were probably just conventional speakers in a vertical column for easy rigging or fixed installations, not a true line array.

With portable, small band setups we also had the venerable Shure Vocal Master. Remember those? I think one of the garage bands I played in, used those back in the day. Horrible-sounding things compared to today's gear, but it was better than running a mic through the guitar amps.

I'm not convinced we should call them line arrays or articulated arrays. The Fishman in particular strikes me as a combination of the column speaker, powered speaker, acoustic amplifier, and tripod mount concepts that have all been tried and true. I do give them credit for combining all those ideas very effectively in a small affordable package.

Right, it's a triumph of design for portability and easy setup if nothing else, at an affordable cost for many musicians. I would argue that the coverage is better for larger rooms with conventional speakers you can get up higher on stands, and the Bose marketing angle of "not needing monitors" only works under certain very restricted circumstances. But still, good systems for certain applications.

And yes, not true line arrays (IMO), not even the larger Bose version. At least not in the sense that the term is used for the big, flown concert arrays. Measure the output across the room on a SPL meter with a Bose system, and you'll see a more-or-less normal (inverse square law) fall-off in output, just like a conventional speaker cabinet.

[almeriastrings]

That's good to know, thanks! I was wondering how the columns performed without the subs, since the groups I play with now only go as low as acoustic guitar, no bass or drums.

Columns don't look as scary as conventional cabinets on speaker stands, although I'd still want to raise them fairly high for even room coverage.

I am pretty sure that would work very well. There is even a standard pole mount bracket available for the columns:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/fbt_vertus_vt_s_604.htm

Build quality on these things is excellent. Still pretty portable too. The columns only weigh in at 9Kg (circa 20 pounds) each, and they run really cool, thanks again to the Class-D amplifiers, which is definitely a plus for us "half dead old geezers" with bad backs from hauling the transformer-laden kit of yesteryear that also needed enough heat sinking to fry eggs on.

Excellent system. Sounded really 'open' and accurate. Nice, big sound.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Almeria, how did you plug the output from the A&H into the SA 220's? (Balanced, Unbalanced - Aux In or the front Inputs??)

[Eddie Sheehy]

I bought one of these in 2009 and used it for a lot of small gigs, plus for rehearsals where things tended to get pretty loud. Never had anything but good luck out of mine. Its funny though, now that I don't do any jazz gigs, I don't need it, and found 0 interest here on the classifieds. I guess some folks thought that lugging around a PA was the better option, but that's not my experience. If you need a portable good-sounding device, the Fishman delivers. Love it, and used it a lot...

I had responded to your ad but never received a reply... I assumed you had moved it along...

[almeriastrings]

Almeria, how did you plug the output from the A&H into the SA 220's? (Balanced, Unbalanced - Aux In or the front Inputs??)

You can feed a line level balanced (on XLR) input into the MON IN socket of the SA220's. The AUX input is unbalanced. If you want to use the AUX in, then this little box (plus a short jack-jack cable) will convert from balanced line to unbalanced and at the same time help reduce any possible ground-loops:

http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/...s/product/dti/

[Eddie Sheehy]

I meant AUX in for unbalanced and XLR Inputs (on the front) for Balanced - that's interesting that you can use the MON xlrs as input for the Mixer output - woudn't using the front XLR's add the extra Gain controls on the SA220?

[almeriastrings]

The front XLR inputs are routed through the mic preamps, EQ and FX and are designed for low level signals. The MON in at the back is not. It's direct and is intended for line-level signals. Hence, it is much better suited to feeding from an external mixer. If you did use the front XLR's you'd have to engage the PAD button. You can still control the level if you wish from the front panel MON LEVEL knob when using the rear XLR - though normally, you'd just set this and do everything from the mixer main out faders.

[almeriastrings]

Just an update... I got to thinking about this a few weeks ago and tried a little experiment. Would the SA220 work with subs? Answer - yes. It will. To test it out I used a DBX 233XS active crossover and a borrowed EV ZXA1 Sub. .

Wow. Potent! 220w for the mids/HF + 700w on the sub, so you have just short of 1kW per side there. It certainly extends the scalability of the SA220 to a whole new level... way, way overkill for my normal applications, but it can be done... if I was going to do it myself, I'd look for a smaller more compact sub, I think. The LD Systems Maui 28 sub-extender looks interesting and more suitable for anything I might need.

An interesting experiment, anyway, and good to know it is possible and sounds fine.

[Tim2723]

I'm surprised that Fishman hasn't come out with some sort of extended bass add-on for the SoloAmp. Of the two competitors, Bose has done a lot with extendable bass capacity with their modular bass approach. It's probably just a matter of time. I can't imagine there wouldn't be interest in the marketplace for a matching subwoofer.

The Maui 28 looks like a good match, but at 50 pounds it's a bit counter to the super-portability concept. The Bose modules are heavy (all bass will be heavy) but they can be carried in one hand. Too bad the technologies are mutually exclusive.

[RogueAssets]

Hi,
I just purchased a 220 and am interested in hooking up the MC102C to it. I would love and appreciate any more details about how best to connect and run mics. (I currently use a Mackie PM system which is fairly brainless to set up and am not familiar with all the steps required to properly run the mixer with the Fishman.) Thanks!

[allenhopkins]

Assume you mean the Yamaha MG102C mixer. Best way to connect a mixer to the SA-220 is to run a cable into the auxiliary input on the back, set "aux" and system gain levels on the SA-220 at acceptable levels, and mix all your EQ and mic levels from the mixer. Basically, you're treating it like a powered speaker. I use a 5-channel Behringer mixer that way.

Probably equally "brainless" as your current system, since you're doing all the controlling from the mixer.

[almeriastrings]

As Allen says. To go over the connection options:

1) Send L+R channels (stereo) from the mixer to the 1/4 TRS 'AUX IN' jack on the back. This would use a 'stereo' splitter cable with 2X mono jacks to stereo jack. If you are using a small mixer that does not have XLR outputs this works fine.

2) Send one of the mixer main outputs via XLR-XLR cable to the MONITOR IN socket on the rear.

Your MC102 does not have XLR outs, so use the former method using a splitter cable.

Worth noting the AUX jack automatically sums any stereo signals to mono.

[RogueAssets]

Thanks so much, Almeriastrings and Allen Hopkins!
I will try all the above and update with any useful intel.
(and yes, Allen, I did mean MG )

[RogueAssets]

Hi Allen,
From the mixer side, which outs and cable(s) do you use? The stereo outs with a two-to-one cable as described by Almeria? (Like I said, I'm new to this, so please pardon any ignorance on my part if I am missing the obvious!) Much appreciated! About to dive in!

Assume you mean the Yamaha MG102C mixer. Best way to connect a mixer to the SA-220 is to run a cable into the auxiliary input on the back, set "aux" and system gain levels on the SA-220 at acceptable levels, and mix all your EQ and mic levels from the mixer. Basically, you're treating it like a powered speaker. I use a 5-channel Behringer mixer that way.

Probably equally "brainless" as your current system, since you're doing all the controlling from the mixer.

[RogueAssets]

Update: Success!

I ended up running one each 1/4" TRS–TRS cables from the L and R stereo outs on the Yamaha MG102c to each channel on the fishman.

With all four mixer inputs used for mics, I could pan neutral set up as is, or pan hard R and use, say, channel 2 for the mixer, freeing up channel 1 (with tuner-in) for an instrument. Or, as I suspect by the way the pans were left by previous owner, presuming 2 vox, 2 instruments, Pan R for vox ins, sent to sa220 channel 2, and left (or vice versa, that doesn't really matter, but for me, visually, it makes sense to have right pan be the "right hand channel") for instruments using channel 1 on sa220. Not sure how it would all pan out (har har) with utilizing the split channels for more than one instrument if we wanted 3 vocal channels.

I will say i think there is a bit of quality and "umph" loss when I did a mic switch (same mic, cord and human) from SA220 to through-mixer (nothing else in system) but from what I read that's to be expected, and possibly I'll be able to adapt with creative eq.

Definitely will run vox straight to SA220 and use instrument amps w only 1–2 vocalists as it seemed to sound way better and fuller that way.

Thanks again, AlmeriaStrings and AllenHopkins for all your help!

[allenhopkins]

Hi Allen,
From the mixer side, which outs and cable(s) do you use? The stereo outs with a two-to-one cable as described by Almeria? (Like I said, I'm new to this, so please pardon any ignorance on my part if I am missing the obvious!) Much appreciated! About to dive in!

Well, you've already got the set-up you want, but in answer to your question:

I just ran a standard 1/4" connector cable from one side of my (stereo) Behringer mixer's main outputs, to the "Aux" input on the SA 220. I have the pans on the mixer centered most of the time anyway, since I always run my PA in mono. The mixer has a monitor send, but the SA 220's positioned in such a way that the band can hear it, so it functions as a "monitor" as well as a main speaker -- assuming you're OK, as I am, with using the "house" mix as a monitor mix.

Were I to need a monitor with a separate mix, I'd use a powered monitor (generally Galaxy Audio powered Hot Spot) and the monitor send from the mixer. Very simple EQ on the Hot Spot, but adequate to my needs.

You shouldn't lose much signal running through the mixer as opposed to directly into the SA 220, but there may be some issue with the line level on the mixer send. I like your idea of running the two vocal mics directly into the SA 220's "front" channels, and you could then either mic the instrument amps, and run them through the mixer, or just use them "naked."

I've used my SA 220 in fairly big rooms, up to a 300-seat auditorium, and also outdoors, with generally satisfactory results. Using it with a five-piece group, I used two condenser mics for vocals, with vocalists "gathering around" when more than two were singing, through the SA 220's two channels, and used five instrumental mics (an all-acoustic group), run through the mixer and then into the Aux input of the SA 220. For a smaller room in a museum, about 75 in the audience, worked fine.

[almeriastrings]

One thing.... the SA220a is a mono system, so you don't need to send anything to it in stereo (as such) because it all gets converted to mono anyway. Normally, you just keep your channel pans on the mixer centered. Then you need one feed to the SA220a. Now, you CAN use a 'Splitter' cable as I described, into the AUX jack on the rear panel - but the main purpose of this is that it prevents any 'accidents' in case a Pan control is unintentionally moved, and it sums to mono if you are running say, music from an IPod into the mixer during intervals, etc.

By going into the rear AUX or MON inputs you can also adjust the overall input level on the SA220 using the relevant front panel knobs.

[Charlieshafer]

Here's a peanut-gallery question on these: I've never had to worry about outdoor sound until now, as we're going to try a few summer concerts (relatively small area, maybe 150 people spread out with the furthest perhaps 75 feet away.) I know the QSC 10's work well, but do the Fishmans work acceptably, or go with a more mainstream powered speaker, like the QSC's?

[pops1]

I find sound carries very well outdoors so if your set up covers an inside venue, it should cover an outdoor one. Since even talking in the audience is not contained you don't have to deal with the noise and your sound will be far above a normal voice so you should be heard quite a ways away without trying to be loud.