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Thread: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    http://www.mixonline.com/live_sound/...bbons_on_road/

    I really enjoy using ribbon microphones on acoustic instruments, particularly fiddle/violin, mandolin, and guitar, as well as on horns. Lots of stuff, really.

    Recent innovations in ribbon microphone designs have sparked a renaissance in the use of ribbon mics in the studio. As this article says, the usual view of the use of ribbon mics has changed a lot recently.

    So here's an article from the venerable audio magazine Mix for y'all. Enjoy!

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    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Steve, which ribbons do you use? Have you ever used the Woodpecker by Blue? I was thinking of getting one of these.
    Explore some of my published music here.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Cool article, thanks for the link! A couple of pointers for those who haven't used ribbons, though:

    The article talks about using ribbon mics for things like guitar amps (perfect!) and drum overheads, where you don't have to worry much about the back pattern pickup. If you're using a typical weekend warrior PA with floor monitors, then you could run into feedback trouble with vocals and acoustic instruments. It could work with in-ear monitoring, as long as there isn't a lot of crowd noise directly in back of the mic (which would rule out some bar gigs!). When the big dogs talk about using ribbons on the road, I'll bet it's mostly with IEM systems.

    That doesn't mean you shouldn't try it. Just be aware of where the nulls of the pickup pattern are, and what's behind the mic. Ribbon mics could work very well with side-fill monitoring, because the side nulls are very deep.

    There are a few ribbon mics available with more restricted patterns that operate more like conventional mics. The most common (and stage-worthy) one is probably the hypercardioid Beyerdynamic M160. That's a neat little mic. For recording, I'd still prefer a more classic figure-8 pattern like a Royer R-121 (my favorite) or a Coles 4038, but that M160 would be cool as a stage mic. There are Chinese ribbon mics available for a lot less, and they might be worth experimenting with. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any that have a directional pattern like the M160.

    As the article points out, phantom power isn't a problem *if* your cables are wired correctly, but it still makes me a little nervous to hit the 48v switch with ribbons patched in. Most of the smaller, portable mixers lack individual 48v. switches on each channel, so it's all-or-nothing.

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    garded
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Thanks Steve, that was a cool article. For years I was always at the mercy of different sound co's and it was usually not much fun. Until I got asked to sit in with a friends band, and got in front of what I thought was a 58. For the first time, I didn't have to struggle to be heard, and it sounded like I always wanted my mandolin to sound. After we got done I looked close and it was a Beyer 260. Took me years to finally get one and it does sound like I remember. I also got an inline booster from Zen audio, that's phantom powered. Killed two birds with one stone.

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    I owned one of these for a while to try it, for the price (used about $600.00) it is a good mic. You can use it with most pres as it requires phantom power, a no no for most ribbon mics.

    I eventually sold it as I like my Royers, AEAs and RCAs better for the same use.
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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Thanks, foldedpath, Tony! You guys always have the real word, 'where the rubber meets the road.' Tony, the M160/260 is a fave of mine for mandolins & fiddles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Nollman View Post
    Steve, which ribbons do you use? Have you ever used the Woodpecker by Blue? I was thinking of getting one of these.
    Hi Jim,
    I'm not really up to date. I have had the chance to use some Royers, which are consistent and versatile, and those big English Coles ribbons (that look like horseshoes that have magnets that would lift a car), and which are genius mics. I've gotten to use
    an AEA mic once and it was amazing. It was the really huge one, in stereo, so I can't really comment on the mono ones from that, I think.

    The ones I have are from old to vintage: Beyer M160, M260, & several M500s; some RCA BK5b's & a 1935 Varacoustic; some odds & ends such as a Japanese stereo ribbon mic from the '70's.

    BLUE mics are generally very good, and the reviews I've read of the Woodpecker are pretty glowing, tho I don't think it would be my first choice. It was something that was common to a number of the reviews of the Woodpecker that put me off... I don't quite recall. If a mfr either emphasizes the rolled-off high end, or installs for the standard condensor mic hi-mid emphasis bump with their preamp, I distrust the whole thing... maybe that was it.

    Shure recently bought out a very well-respected British ribbon builder and has rebadged that lineup as their own, and those look very promising. A company called ShinyBox has been making ribbon mics for a while, and they get nice reviews but aren't at all common. One mic that I haven't heard, but I'm fascinated by, is the Cascade Fat Head. Cascade makes seven or eight ribbon mics and they're all very, very reasonably priced, hand made in the US, and well reviewed too. I saw somewhere that someone is building a ribbon mic with an old-style tube preamp box on the wire. How many marketing buzzwords can we squeeze out of these technologies? Geeez...

    Some folks won't buy used mics at all, but I have (that's probably obvious...), and buying used contemporary ribbons can be a tad dodgy, since they can be mistreated easily, but for the contemporary, amplified ones, that's where I'd be looking. But then... all my gear is paid for since I've had it all so long, so I'm real cheap. ;-)

    Jim, I see fado guitars in your sig... Is it you who mentioned here on the Cafe once that you tuned one to DADGAD? Since I read that I've been sorely tempted to try that.

    I hope some of this is useful...

    stv
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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Wow, look what I just found! Recording Hack's $60,000 Ribbon Mic Shootout!

    http://recordinghacks.com/2011/07/11...-mic-shootout/

    I haven't read a word of it yet, but I'm excited. There was a link to this from the Cascade mics site (where they also announced that Cascade ribbons are in use on the Steely Dan tour... sweet).

    Now I see that they only do guitar cabinets, saxophoe, drum OHs, and voice-overs. No bloody
    acoustic strings! Fie. And alas.

    I guess I should have put this in too... added now...

    http://www.cascademicrophones.com/

    There are some acoustic stringed instrument recordings on there.

    I have no financial nor personal interest in Cascade mics.


    stv
    Last edited by steve V. johnson; Jul-16-2011 at 2:52pm.
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    garded
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Steve,
    You said you were a fan of the M260? Turns out there's two models, and not really knowing what I was doing or the difference, I got the M260.80, or the later model one. Maybe that's why I seemed to get such a great deal on it. I think I paid $220 for it. It looks brand new, I plugged it in and it works good.

    It's just that I see so many grumpy about the "rolloff" that was built into this model. And like they said, I was surprised by the amount of brightness to the mic. But it was pointed out that it wasn't really bright, it justhad no bottom end(below 200hz). Looking at the spec that came with the mic, it has different curves that are different distances away from source. It would seem looking at them the mic does exactly what it's supposed to, compensate for proximity. But it also has quite a bump in the hi end. Since it's a hyper cardioid, you would want to be right on it to get the most out of it, so maybe that's ok?

    In the links to the shootout there was also a link to Mr. Sank, the re ribbon guru. He does M260s with a RCA 77 ribbon, and says the re ribboned M260 sounds a lot like the 77. But makes no mention if you do a M260.80, does it still have the same curve, or does it turn out like a regular 260? This whole world of ribbons is pretty deep, and with my case of Teflon Brain, some of this stuff just don't stick

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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by steve V. johnson View Post
    One mic that I haven't heard, but I'm fascinated by, is the Cascade Fat Head. Cascade makes seven or eight ribbon mics and they're all very, very reasonably priced, hand made in the US, and well reviewed too.
    The Fat Head line (and probably the rest of Cascade's microphones) are actually made in China. Cascade imports them and does the QC here (which probably means they throw away one in five mics). I've used the Fat Head and Fat Head II and they are a great way of getting that "ribbon" sound on a guitar cabinet for not a lot of money. I don't know that I'd use them for much else.

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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    I don't know much about the .80 at all. Tony, neither of my 260s (nor the 160) came with any graphs, and I've never had 'em tested. I've never had an original and a .80 both in the same room to compare. I don't think the earlier ones had a presence peak, it doesn't sound like it to me, which is one thing that makes 'em really great on fiddles. I've used a 260 on a double bass, near the bottom of the fingerboard and about 18" out, angled about 45º from the plane of the top of the bass, and on the opposite side from the player. At that distance there was a really nice bass response. I had only expected to get some nice hand details, percussion, from it, but it added nicely to the RE20 I had lower down looking at the f-hole.

    As to price, that's a nice one! I paid more than that for my older ones eight or ten years ago. I haven't looked at prices in a long time.

    Rynando, that's interesting. The Cascade website is plastered with 'Made In USA' and they are publicly very proud of the American made components. I guess everybody lies about somethin' some time.

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    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Steve, yes I have had my Fado guitar tuned to DADGAD, and for many years. During a show, I'd start the 10 minute long instrumental tune I'd composed specifically for this instrument, with this tuning, (basically an open D sus). About 10 minutes into it, I'd quickly tune the G down to an F# and play the resultant open D tuning with a bottleneck. It was basically a raga format, with the drone played on the bass strings. These days I hardly ever take the guitarron out of my closet.

    And thanks for the insight about the Woodpecker ribbon. I can see there's a ribbon in my future, maybe later this year, and reading through this thread suggests I'd probably do better by getting the Royer.
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by steve V. johnson View Post
    Rynando, that's interesting. The Cascade website is plastered with 'Made In USA' and they are publicly very proud of the American made components. I guess everybody lies about somethin' some time.
    They assemble bits of the microphone here. For example, I know you used to be able to request different, non-Chinese sourced, transformer options with the Fat Head so they are doing some assembly in the USA. They probably put the mics in those wood cases they come in as well. It is a pretty big stretch to say that something is made somewhere when 90% of the parts come from elsewhere. Most of the Chinese mic resellers will play this game however. Even mic giant Telefunken got caught trying to sell a $150 Chinese tube mic as a "German" $2,000+ microphone a few years back. The only value they added to the mic was the Telefunken logo and the case.

    Again, the Fat Head isn't a bad mic for the money. If you bought the generic Chinese version of the mic direct from the factory for $40 you'd probably have to by eight of them to get a couple that had properly tensioned ribbons and were otherwise usable. Cascade does this for you for a fee and I think it's a fair trade.

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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyP View Post
    In the links to the shootout there was also a link to Mr. Sank, the re ribbon guru. He does M260s with a RCA 77 ribbon, and says the re ribboned M260 sounds a lot like the 77.
    I've got a couple M260s with consecutive serial numbers that were re-ribboned at the Beyer factory, and an M500, M160, and M260 that Sank modded with non-Beyer ribbons...

    As expected (and hoped for) the factory M260s sound really similar, but each of the other mics--kinda like old RCAs--is a unique animal unto itself....

    I use them all the time as vocal mics for bands who want to track the vocals live too....
    They reject very nicely.....

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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by Spruce View Post
    I've got a couple M260s with consecutive serial numbers that were re-ribboned at the Beyer factory, and an M500, M160, and M260 that Sank modded with non-Beyer ribbons...

    As expected (and hoped for) the factory M260s sound really similar, but each of the other mics--kinda like old RCAs--is a unique animal unto itself....

    I use them all the time as vocal mics for bands who want to track the vocals live too....
    They reject very nicely.....
    So Spruce, any opinions about the M260.80? Leave it alone, or have it re ribboned by Sank?

    And by your quote, each modded Beyer sounds different. I was more thinking of a instrument mic than a vocal. I also remember you being the only one who recommended a M260 as an on stage mando mic. I've not tried mine on stage yet, mostly because of the volume mismatch to my other condensers. But I got one of those Fethead inline amps and that seems to level the playing field so to speak.

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    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyP View Post
    So Spruce, any opinions about the M260.80? Leave it alone, or have it re ribboned by Sank?
    I wouldn't worry about that rolloff on the M260.80 (even though I've never used an M260.80)...
    If the mic works well, it's strong points far outweigh any rolloff (which a lot of folks do anyway)....
    That's obviously very debatable...

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyP View Post
    I also remember you being the only one who recommended a M260 as an on stage mando mic. I've not tried mine on stage yet, mostly because of the volume mismatch to my other condensers. But I got one of those Fethead inline amps and that seems to level the playing field so to speak.
    I like the 260 onstage, especially for fiddles, accordions, and other things that make noise that I don't want to record or amplify...
    Yeah, they need more poop from the pre, but even a little Mackie board with the pre set to 3-4 o'clock instead of 12-1 will get the mic going just fine....

    And, again, the rejection on those things is the strong point....
    I do a lot of live recording, and those Beyer ribbons would isolate the vocal or instrument in a very pleasant way...

    These days I tend to select mics for what they don't do as opposed to what they will do...

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    garded
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Thanks Spruce. I value your level headed opinions a lot. And your comment about the 260 on stage a couple of years ago fired up that old memory of that 260 I used on stage, leading me to buy my 260. It was weird that I hit that one just right on ebay, and nobody bid on it. Now I just have to get on with it and use it live one of these days.

    "what they don't do as opposed to what they will do... "

    man do I hear that!

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    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyP View Post
    Now I just have to get on with it and use it live one of these days.
    Make sure to invest in a cable that you know is wired correctly...
    And just because it's made by a company, that doesn't mean it's wired right...
    (Experience on that one)...

    I have a 1/2 dozen Mogami cables that are right, and those go on the ribbons even in my own studio where I supposedly know where the phantom power is or isn't....

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    garded
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    I've caught a couple of "name" cables being wired wrong. When I originally tested the mic, I had the global phantom off, and did like you suggested in another thread, ganged two channels of the mixer serial to get some umph. That sounded really good. But was still scary for live. Then somebody in another thread mentioned this FetHeadhttp://tritonaudio.com/index.php?sec...d=17&Itemid=33

    It's supposed to not only bump the signal +20db, it runs off of phantom, and blocks phantom to the mic. Got some good reviews. Now I just have to find the little devil as it got put in some really good place that I don't remember where, Doh!

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    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    I interpret the comments here, as recommending both Royer and the Beyer ribbons, especially for mandolin. Reading through other threads, i see people especially raving over older RCA ribbons. Not much interested in the RCAs, only because I can't afford them. Are other ribbons as good a choice as the Royer and the Beyer? Which of these 2 do people like better, and why?
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    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Nollman View Post
    Are other ribbons as good a choice as the Royer and the Beyer? Which of these 2 do people like better, and why?
    Well, the Royers are (I think) all figure-8s, and the Beyers all versions of cardioids....
    So that's a huge factor for me as the pattern is equally as important to me as the way they sound, and both those mics sound great....
    So-ooo, figure out which pattern might be more useful for you, and head that direction....

    I'm sure some of the Chinese ribbons sound wonderful, but I haven't really delved into them....
    Does a Chinese cardioid ribbon even exist??

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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Nollman View Post
    Steve, yes I have had my Fado guitar tuned to DADGAD, and for many years. During a show, I'd start the 10 minute long instrumental tune I'd composed specifically for this instrument, with this tuning, (basically an open D sus). About 10 minutes into it, I'd quickly tune the G down to an F# and play the resultant open D tuning with a bottleneck. It was basically a raga format, with the drone played on the bass strings. These days I hardly ever take the guitarron out of my closet.

    And thanks for the insight about the Woodpecker ribbon. I can see there's a ribbon in my future, maybe later this year, and reading through this thread suggests I'd probably do better by getting the Royer.
    That Fado move is fascinating! Bravo! I'd love to see that. Yes, I need one, one of these days. I wouldn't rule out the Woodpecker... When I was a studio manager on a couple of occaisions I got to go shopping for mics. Several times it was
    with a client who was about to rent a mmic for a particular use, others it was to choose some new stock for the studio. It was
    always great fun to go into a nice pro audio shop and A/B/C some mics. A couple of the studios for which I worked had long
    relationships with the local dealers, so I got to take a couple or three mics back to the studio to audition there for a few days.
    This is preface to suggest that you search out some pro audio shops within your range and go and audition some Likely Suspects,
    it's something I've always enjoyed. I always liked to call ahead to see if they had some preamps that we had. Ours weren't exotic, so that was pretty easy, but it's still a good question, and if not, you can schlep one along. If you can, take a long the favorite instruments and be ready to sing, or perhaps recruit a singer for the trip if you don't do that.

    Honestly, the new crop of ribbons, some with phantom power, some with tube power, all the different variations on the design, sort of spin my head. I read as much as I can about 'em, but I don't get to be around them nor use them as much as I'd like. Anyway, there is a whole host from which to choose. It's a good time for ribbon mics!

    Thanks,
    stv
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    On Cascade mics being US-made, Rynanado wrote: "They assemble bits of the microphone here. For example, I know you used to be able to request different, non-Chinese sourced, transformer options with the Fat Head so they are doing some assembly in the USA. They probably put the mics in those wood cases they come in as well. It is a pretty big stretch to say that something is made somewhere when 90% of the parts come from elsewhere. "

    Um... like ... cars! Yes, they offer their stock transformer, which they used to say was custom wound for them in the US, but I don't see that on the site, a Lundahl and ... ah... is it 'Cinefex'? Cine-something. Cars, mandolins, microphones... if there's American quality control, I'm happy enough. ;-)

    There are folks out there making mics doing it all here in the States, machining the cases, choosing the grill cloth and wire, all that stuff, but yep, they don't cost what the Cascades do. I should buy one. I should buy lots of stuff. I should have lots of money. Oh... sorry... that 'slippery slope' again...

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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Spruce sez, "These days I tend to select mics for what they don't do as opposed to what they will do... "

    AAAAAAmen. I find I choose soooo much stuff that way nowadays. (Is that a geez? Am I geezing? It's entirely possible...)

    Nice to see you here, Bruce, I was hoping you'd chime in on this stuff!

    Tony, re: M260.80... I really cherish my non-.80 versions, but about your question 'To Sank or Not To Sank?,' I'd be more
    likely to send Stephen a newer production mic than an older one. I have only heard great things about his mods/upgrades,
    and I'd love to hear some. Very tempting. There is a mention of consistency of the product in a post here... A friend here
    and I split the purchase of some Bk-5bs and sent them of to Clarence Kane (do I have that name right?) on the east coast
    for refurbishing. One of the first things he said to us was 'Y'know, you can't expect these things to be identical from mic to
    mic. I don't spec out the cases and the windscreen and if the cage is bent a little and it makes a difference in sound...' So
    I've come to enjoy that and to regard each mic as an individual, like handmade mandolins, guitars, kitchens, oak trim, hot rods...
    They're sort of 'pre-manufacturing' so I don't worry.

    stv
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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Nollman View Post
    I interpret the comments here, as recommending both Royer and the Beyer ribbons, especially for mandolin. Reading through other threads, i see people especially raving over older RCA ribbons. Not much interested in the RCAs, only because I can't afford them. Are other ribbons as good a choice as the Royer and the Beyer? Which of these 2 do people like better, and why?
    Jim, shows ya how out of touch I am... I think of the RCA ribbons, with the exception of the 77 and the 44, as less expensive than
    the current ribbons. One can hunt up really inexpensive ones from estate sales, all that stuff, Shures, EVs, RCAs, there are a bunch, and have 'em refurbed, for less than a new Royer. But it takes some study, like buying anything pre-WWII, or even pre-1960...

    The Beyers are more traditional designs and Beyerdynamic has been making ribbon mics since the '50's or '60's. The basic models are real simple, not rocket science, old designs done really well and not expensive. The Royers are ... what?... ten years in the market, if that, and bring the close and consistent technologies of digital CAD/CAM design and manufacturing, and preamp design to meet the basic ribbon mic theory and design. So that might be, just by virtue of contemporary technologies being applied, considered a "better" mic hands down. Cost, warranty, intended use are all good things to consider before making a purchase.
    For a mandolin on stage and in the studio, I'd choose a Beyer. For studio only (and if $ is not a consideration), I'd choose the Royer.

    stv
    steve V. johnson

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    Default Re: "Ribbons [microphones] On The Road" - Mix Magazine

    Quote Originally Posted by Spruce View Post
    Well, the Royers are (I think) all figure-8s, and the Beyers all versions of cardioids....
    So that's a huge factor for me as the pattern is equally as important to me as the way they sound, and both those mics sound great....
    So-ooo, figure out which pattern might be more useful for you, and head that direction.... >>

    The M160 is Figure - 8 and the M260 (double ribbon) and the M500 are a tight cardioid. I think Beyer adds a prefix to what it calls the 260, maybe 'super-,' but I don't recall. That's a fairly recent change in the lingo.

    << I'm sure some of the Chinese ribbons sound wonderful, but I haven't really delved into them....
    Does a Chinese cardioid ribbon even exist??
    Well, if we mark the Cascade ribbon mics Chinese, no, there's no cardioid in that lot. The Russian Oktava co. claimed that one of their ribbons was cardioid once, but the furor over the weird resonances from the case and cage of that mic completely overshadowed that discussion. All the stuff like Nady and the like, those $150 ribbons, all seem to be figure of 8. Tangentially,
    my RCA Varacoustic has an acoustic labyrinth in the case, like a 77(!) that lets it work as an omni, cardioid, hypercardioid and
    Figure of 8. I always forget which is which because the switch is labelled in code, as in A, B, C, 1, 2, and H, or some such, so
    I leave it in the one position I can remember to be Fig 8, and when I feel creative I move the switch around to see what it sounds like otherwise.

    stv
    steve V. johnson

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