Chestnuts

[Randi Gormley]

A couple of discussions about ITM in other fora have mentioned that veterans cringe and leave for a pint of something when someone (a visitor, usually) starts up one of the old chestnuts, although the reason for it is sort of left up to the reader to figure out. It seems to be a mix of people just not interested in playing a tune they've played 1,000 times and musical snobbery. Whatever. It just seems to be a fact of session life.

So I was surprised and delighted at a house concert last night featuring Clare fiddler Pat O'Connor and box player (I think from Kerry) Eoghan O'Sullivan who not only played lots of familiar tunes but even mentioned that people in Ireland seem embarrassed to play some of them out loud and that they never understood why.

Among the tunes they played: Boys of Blue Hill, the Blackbird, O'Keefe's slide and Cooley's reel.

It was refreshing. I almost never hear anything like the old favorites in real sessions (barring Cooley's reel) -- and made me wonder: Am I the only one who likes playing/hearing these old things?

[Paul Cowham]

There is usually a reason why "chestnuts" become so which is that they are great tunes. Although, as with all things in life, you can have too much of a good thing and any tune that is heard too much could grate after a while.

Understandably, beginners tend to play these tunes (and nothing wrong with that at all), so maybe some people subconciously associate these tunes with beginners sessions and not "grown up music".

As an aside, the song "Whisky in the Jar" is often treated as a chestnut and I (until recently) associated it with March 17th and drunk people and didn't really consider it as a serious type of song. I recently purchased the Garcia/Grisman album "Shady Grove", and there is a wonderful version of that song on there that made me see it in a whole new light and appreciate what a great song it is, Garcia managed to convey so much emotion with his voice.

[JeffD]

I recently purchased the Garcia/Grisman album "Shady Grove", and there is a wonderful version of that song on there that made me see it in a whole new light and appreciate what a great song it is, Garcia managed to convey so much emotion with his voice.

They are great tunes. And this is the challenge. To play them in a way that makes folks hear them new again.

[AnneFlies]

As a beginner, I want to learn the familiar old tunes. Knowing what the tune sounds like first makes it much easier than trying to figure out a new tune, then discover I'm playing it all wrong. Familiarity may breed contempt in a seasoned player, but it sure is helpful to a new one. I follow the Song of the Week, but it's a lot easier after a few people have posted their version.

[Richard Moore]

They are great tunes. And this is the challenge. To play them in a way that makes folks hear them new again.

Exactly so! I spend a lot of time working on ways to present some of these "old chestnuts" in a fresh way... often by slowing them down from modern ITM warp speed and paying attention to the dynamics. St. Ann(e)'s Reel is one such that this works beautifully on.

[Markus]

It's been interesting exploring ITM and some folk traditions that I don't have much experience other than as a casual listener. I'll play songs out of tunebooks that I've never heard - the thought to speed them up to warp speed [on some] doesn't occur to me as they're lovely at a moderate tempo.

I was thrown at a show a few months back, as I recognized a few melodies but they were fast and [IMO] over-ornamented. Sometimes familiarity causes us to want to `enhance' things that don't need it, to put songs into hyperdrive when they work normal speed.

It is a challenge. I'm learning `old standard' bluegrass instrumentals on mandolin - and after playing them on guitar for years, it's been a case of needing to re-inject some life into these tunes, to realize that I don't need to over-complexify it and to play the tune `true' instead of needing to tweak it for my own pleasure. Not to argue against doing major tweaks on tunes ... but after time, that can be the lazy answer to giving the tune life again [just add notes].

It's amazing what dynamics, what creative use of instrumentation/arrangement, what trading melodic lines between instruments can create from a tune that sounded tired just minutes before. Bored with a tune? Trade melodic lines back and forth with another picker through a fast fiddle tune ... just nailing the melody and feel will be plenty tricky with another person sharing the lead.

In an old band, we had some much older and extremely talented/experienced musicians stop by one of our jams. In five minutes, one of our better tunes was dramatically transformed through adding a clever outro, putting in a couple stops, dropping one section down quiet for a build, and a few slight arrangement tweaks. Sometimes you need to walk away from chestnuts for a while ... but more often it calls for us to use all our learned skills and creativity.

Often I go watch Marshall or Thile on video tear up Fisher's Hornpipe [and realize how many hours of their life they've spent playing or practicing that single tune] .... and I realize that perhaps I could find a way to revive the chestnuts I let die.

[JeffD]

For example: Here is the chestnut "Red Wing", a tune I normally am soooooooo tired of. And here it is done so achingly beautiful I forgot I was tired of it. Its a cool video as well, but the music carries it.





Oh, and they didn't juice it up by:

speeding up the tune, or
adding lots of ornament, or
taking killer breaks, or
playing it bossa nova or raggae

They dug deep into what is inherently beautiful about the tune, the reasons it has been so popular for all these years, they found the inner integrity and beauty of the tune, and leaned on it, and trusted the tune to do the work for them.

That is about as perfect as one could want.

[JeffD]

Do that with Boys of Blue Hill or O'Keefe's Slide, and you will have them where they live.

[allenhopkins]

Seisuns here seem pretty accepting of old familiar tunes; they get everyone playing -- no one left out! -- and since most tunes only go 3-4 times through, even the most jaded can put up with two minutes of Irish Washerwoman or Flowers of Edinburgh.

Something else to consider: tunes become "chestnuts" because they're good tunes; people like to play them, so they play them a lot, and thus they become "standards" which the really "hip" wouldn't think of starting, but are usually content to join in and play along with. Plus, if you have "audience" or kibitzers or whatever, someone outside the circle is pretty sure to ask, "Hey, do you guys know __________?" And we do, and we'll play it through -- with some participating in a perfunctory manner -- to show we're nice people, and want to make the non-musicians happy, so they'll stay, and buy more drinks, and make the club owner happy too.

[Ravenwood]

To expand on AnneFlies' post I wonder if some of the aversion to playing the old chestnuts in sessions is that many perceive them to be "easy" tunes and that they are somehow beyond that. The popularity and familiarity that make some tunes chestnuts also make them easier for beginning musicians to learn because they already have them in their head. The tunes have in that fashion acquired what I think is sometimes an inappropriate label as beginner tunes.

[AnneFlies]

I'm learning to play the "chestnuts" because that's what everyone else plays, and it will someday (when I get up my courage) allow me to play nicely with others. Playing familiar tunes in a standard manner allows beginners to join in and learn and enjoy the company of a group session. We grow from there, but the more experienced players need to have a little patience with us. I'd be happy to join in for a little bit at the start of a session, and yield to faster and more accomplished players after that. That's how we learn and grow.

[Jill McAuley]

Here's an example of a simple tune that initially I was a bit "whatever" about and since then have come to find it enjoyable to play: one of the tunes of the week over at the Song A Week Social group awhile back was "Barney Brannigan", a nice simple slip jig. I initially wasn't taken with it enough to learn it. Fast forward to a few days ago when I was watching the trailer for a documentary called "Beautiful People" about the long running session at Dempsey's in New York. There was a snippet of the folks at the session playing a tune that sounded vaguely familiar to me. I was able to pick it out on the mandolin immediately and it occurred to me that maybe it had featured over at the SAW at some stage. Sure enough there it was - "Barney Brannigan" aka "Barney Brallighan". Hearing it played in a session setting cast it in a completely different light for me, very enjoyable wee tune altogether!

Cheers,
Jill

[JeffD]

I guess the thing I see that irks me is musicians who think they are "too good" for a particular tune.

That tune will be remembered long after the "too good" players are gone.

[foldedpath]

There may be a degree of snobbery involved for a few people, but I think it's mainly just the fun in learning new tunes to keep the repertoire fresh and interesting. When new tunes come in, something has to get chucked overboard to make room.

Now, a performer can often find new life in an old standby, but that's a different thing -- individual expression, vs. the group organism dynamic of a session. For example, check out this Kevin Burke clip below, where the second jig is the "chestnut" Cliffs of Moher. This is brilliant playing, but it would be "hogging the spotlight" to try this at a session (IMO), instead of locking in with the group. And since the group as a whole can't play like this, they keep things interesting by cycling more tunes through the repertoire.

[JeffD]

There may be a degree of snobbery involved for a few people, but I think it's mainly just the fun in learning new tunes to keep the repertoire fresh and interesting. When new tunes come in, something has to get chucked overboard to make room.

Naah. What gets harder is the indexing system, but its all up there somewhere.

[foldedpath]

Naah. What gets harder is the indexing system, but its all up there somewhere.

Oh sure, for each individual player. But that's not what I meant. Sessions take place in a fixed window of time, usually two or three hours. The time limit forces some tunes to be shelved, when any new tunes are brought into the group repertoire. A session that doesn't add a few new tunes now and then, probably isn't a very interesting session to play in (IMO). And those time limits don't change, so....

[steve V. johnson]

Players who "cringe and leave for a pint" say more about themselves than the tunes. I know some players who like to insult folks who come to their sessions and who only know, or openly enjoy, 'the chestnuts.' I'm not sure how to characterise that sort of behavior (other than to say that it's rude and it stinks), it just seems that those people feel the need to somehow distinguish themselves as different, perhaps above all that.

The really great players I know distinguish themselves not by their dislikes and social superiority, but by playing very well and bringing life to whatever tunes come up, and by sharing the music with others, welcoming and teaching.

I don't get to do it much, but when I've been able to travel around a bit and go to sessions around the country, I'm always amazed at what tunes are common to folks all over, and how many of them there are. All sessions are different and play different things in different ways, but there is a whole lot in common. Pretty cool.

Coming back from the first Irish festival I ever attended, a friend who rode with us announced, 'Ah, I just got it! It's all about repertoire -- the players with the most tunes win!' Now there's an interesting persepctive, eh? I like it pretty well.

Enjoy!

stv

[Ravenwood]

Coming back from the first Irish festival I ever attended, a friend who rode with us announced, 'Ah, I just got it! It's all about repertoire -- the players with the most tunes win!' Now there's an interesting persepctive, eh? I like it pretty well.

An interesting parrallel conversation is going on over on Session.org: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27948

Interesting how many players with extensive repertoires eventually come back around to old favourites ...

[Avi Ziv]

I have found that the most creative Irish musicians are the least likely to snub the "chestnuts". If Liz Carroll (perhaps the most prolific living composer of Irish tunes) and John Carty (who never plays a tune the same way twice) are ok with recording Silver Spear then it's just fine by me. At least in our sessions we are ok with well known tunes as long as they are not the only items on the menu.

[fatt-dad]

Let me say this about "chestnuts:" I don't much practice them at home and if I don't get to play them at a jam, I'll just get too rusty on them. Got to keep fluent, eh?

f-d

[foldedpath]

Let me say this about "chestnuts:" I don't much practice them at home and if I don't get to play them at a jam, I'll just get too rusty on them. Got to keep fluent, eh?

Well, that's one way to look at it, but the others in the group may not want to contribute to the project.


Also, that idea works better at OldTime jams where tunes are repeated endlessly, or Bluegrass jams where a song is extended with solo breaks. You've got time to remember and refresh how an old favorite goes.

Irish sets move pretty fast. Usually just two or three repeats of a given tune and it's off to the next one, with no intermission. It's hard to keep up -- especially across those transitions -- unless you already have the tunes well under your fingers. Irish trad players tend to spend a lot of home practice time on this stuff. That may be another reason for snubbing chestnuts: not just the limited window of playing time at the session, but there are only so many hours available for any of us to practice tunes at home, and keep them in good playing form.

[liestman]

I would add that, while you certainly don't want a session to become an "all chestnuts all the time" affair, there is a reason why these tunes are chestnuts - they have appealed to generations of players. Maybe because they are easy, maybe because crowds like them, but they have endured where lesser tunes have been lost to history. So I think every session should have a fair chestnut content and we should also be looking for tunes that we think are chestnut-worthy.