Plans of Brescian mandolin...

[Yaron Naor]

I am looking for plans for building a brescian Mandolin, a baroque instrument, sometimes called also Cremona mandolin, like this:
http://www.atlasofpluckedinstruments.com/mandolins.htm

Can anyone help me

Thanks in advanced!
Yaron Naor

[Graham McDonald]

I don't think there are any plans available, but they are fairly simple instruments in a lot of ways. String length was 31-32cm, the body outline a simple teardrop, and body cross-section semi-circular. I have never seen inside one to check on the bracing, but I was told by an Italian specialist in 18th century mandolins, that they developed from the the Milanese mandolins of the middle/late 18th century. If that were the case, then a transverse brace across the soundhole and two above and below and maybe three fan braces under the bridge. I can't offer any guidance on size of the braces. Of course you have to build the bowl. Here is a pic of a rather elegant little mould for an early 18th century mandolin. I have some pics of some other Cremonese mandolins if you need some pictures get get ideas from.

cheers

graham

[Jim Garber]

That illustration from the link you provide is from Alex Timmerman's book and he provides some measurements and a drwaing of the internal bracing. I think these instruments are built similarly to lutes and I would think that Robert Lundberg's book Historical Lute Construction might be of some help. There is also another book I have at home that does have some plans for a few different mandolins. I can check on that as well, tho I don't know whether it has specific plans for a Brescian.

[Graham McDonald]

Alex's book is not easy to find. Any ideas where one can get a copy?

graham

[Jim Garber]

Ask Alex... I imagine he may have a copy or two...

[Yaron Naor]

Thanks for all the feedbacks... but how can I contact Alex? who is he?
Regards
Yaron.

[Bill Snyder]

You can view Alex Timmerman's profile H E R E . Once on his profile page you can pm him.

[Yaron Naor]

No answer from Alex here or in his website - anyone knows how to reach him, thanks a lot to all my friend here
Yaron.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Yaron,


One of our cafe members, Margriet, told me you were looking for me. And so here I am...
You can always contact me via my profile page here at Mandolin cafe. But let me first straighten out some errors that are displayed in the text above...


You wrote: "brescian Mandolin, a baroque instrument, sometimes called also Cremona mandolin,... ...".
Firstly: the Brescian mandolin is NOT a Baroque instrument. And neither is the Cremonese mandolin.
Both are name indications for two mandolin types; the only thing that they have in common is the fact that they are related to eachother. And only so because of the fact that the latter type, mentioned here, the precursor is of the former type.


Secondly - Quote Mr. Graham McDonald: "but I was told by an Italian specialist in 18th century mandolins, that they developed from the the Milanese mandolins of the middle/late 18th century".

This is very vague... and presumable wrong since the Milanese Mandolin (6x1 strings) has a similar history timeline as the Cremonese mandolin has. Both types are not related in any way with eachother at all.
I started my explanation on "... Milanese mandolins of the middle/late 18th century... " with 'vague' and that's because in Italy (and elsewhere) they often indicate the double gut-strung mandolins with this historically wrong name.
First thing to do is phone this Italian expert and try to figure out what is meant with: "Milanese mandolins of the middle/late 18th century".


And further more I like to inform you that there is no evidence for the double gut-strung Mandolino ánd the single gut-strung Milanese mandolin to be related to the Cremonese mandolin. In fact my research brought me the conviction that the Cremonese mandolin developed seperatey and that it has no relation what-so-ever to the other two. Except perhaps that - through the centuries - it was, and still is, called 'mandolin'. Just because it looks like one...


I see you live in Bat-Hefer, Israel; I you want (that is if you don't have contact with him already) I can bring you in contact with Alon Sariel. He is playing one of my Brescian mandolins.


Best to you all,

Alex.

[Yaron Naor]

Dear Alex, thanks so much for your in-depth answer, now I am getting to understand a bit
I know Alon Sariel very well, I thought maybe you have a plan and the inside bracing pattern so I can start building the mold/template before Alon is back in Israel.
Thanks in advanced!
Yaron.

[Graham McDonald]

Ahh, terminological inexactitude and confusion My apologies. I was referring to gut-strung mandolins built in Milan, rather than the six string Milanese mandolins. My informant was Federico Gabrielli from Milan when I interviewed him a couple of years ago and information of early 18th century bracing from Carlo Cecconi. It seems to me quite logical to develop a gut-strung mandolin tuned in fifths, in response to the growing popularity in the 1760s/70s of the new Neapolitan instrument as Morey does date the earliest from the 1760s. It would be interesting to know the thinking behind the single strings, as the Cremonese instruments would seem to pre-date the single string Milanese. I don't think instruments ever evolve independently, there are always influences and other factors involved.

cheers

graham

[Alex Timmerman]

"It seems to me quite logical to develop a gut-strung mandolin tuned in fifths, in response to the growing popularity in the 1760s/70s of the new Neapolitan instrument as Morey does date the earliest from the 1760s. It would be interesting to know the thinking behind the single strings, as the Cremonese instruments would seem to pre-date the single string Milanese. I don't think instruments ever evolve independently, there are always influences and other factors involved.

cheers

graham"

Hi Graham and all,

It is not so logical as you think it is... Logic is something very strange and often only an interpretation of a certain 'feeling' based on information... and/or (perhaps) lack of information... That on the first part of your line [QUOTE]: "It seems to me quite logical to develop a gut-strung mandolin tuned in fifths, in response to the growing popularity in the 1760s/70s of the new Neapolitan instrument as Morey does date the earliest from the 1760s[QUOTE].

Then on the second under-lined part of your sentence I like to comment as follows; Indeed, if you look backwards (in time and with our contemporary brains) it looks easy and really the thing to do; copy the idea of the metal strung Early Neapolitan mandolin (because it's fast growing popularity from the 1760-ties onwards) and to take from that instrument also its 4-string tuning in fifths and create a single gut-strung version of it. And in fact some makers did just that as a reaction on the popularity of the Early Neapolitan mandolin.

But that doesn't explain (clarifies, or proves) the origine and first appearance of the type itself. I would like to point out here that it could even be so that the gut-strung mandolin with 4 single strings tuned in fifths, indeed the very type that was later named the Cremonese mandolin, had already developed before the metal strung mandolin of which the 4 strings were tuned in fifths was 'invented' by the Roman- and Neapolitan luthiers. The other way around so to speak... To me that makes much more sence; gut-strung remains gut-strung through time...

About the next [QUOTE]"It would be interesting to know the thinking behind the single strings,..." [QUOTE]: I think that stringing an instrument with single strings instead of with double strings is cheaper; a matter of costs, so to speak. Money (costs of manufactory) is also an important factor for the often cheaply build mandolins strung with single gut-strings.

Your line [QUOTE] "as the Cremonese instruments would seem to pre-date the single string Milanese." I hasten to say that again this is not such a clear matter. Therefore we scholars should give ourselves the utmost task not to, there where we don't have them, diffuse Mandolin History matters with 'clear' "answers"... ("would seem", in my opinion is not enough; and personally I have come to the believe that it is better not to write or mention such assumptions. It blocks the thinking of the interested reader or future scholars).

With the above explained I think you will understand that I completely agree with you about your last sentence, [QUOTE]: "I don't think instruments ever evolve independently, there are always influences and other factors involved."


With that line in mind it is only a matter of 'What', 'When', 'Where', and 'Why'...'


Cheers to you,

Alex.

[Graham McDonald]

Alex has, as ever, has a well considered response, but I remain unconvinced that the cost of double strings would have been a major factor in the Cremonese mandolin. Double strings were standard on every fretted and plucked European instrument that I can think of up until the last decade or so of the 18th century when the guitar, the Milanese mandolin and the Cremonese mandolin all started to appear with single strings, although the Cremonese mandolin may have been earlier by 20-30 years. I can only think that there must have been a shift in the aesthetic of how people preferred to hear the sound of a plucked gut string.

That is the mystery and where the 'why' comes into it. I happily admit that I do look at these things as a builder of instruments, rather than a player, and that might well shift my perceptions.

cheers

graham

[brunello97]

Awesome. This thread is why I hang out here. A cafe. I feel as if I am one table over eavesdropping in to a couple of (really) smart guys talking over a subject I am heavily (if only emotionally) invested in. Thank goodness the waiter doesn't expect me to keep ordering drinks. The 'builder' v 'player' pov is very interesting. But I recently watched Herzog's "Cave of Forgotten Dreams" and the artist v filmmaker perspective is on my mind.

The single v double string topic is seminal, as it is at the crux of me trying to get my head around these northern mandolins. Please keep the conversation going......

Mick

[Margriet]

Hi Graham and all,

It is not so logical as you think it is... Logic is something very strange and often only an interpretation of a certain 'feeling' based on information... and/or (perhaps) lack of information...

("would seem", in my opinion is not enough; and personally I have come to the believe that it is better not to write or mention such assumptions. It blocks the thinking of the interested reader or future scholars).

I agree with Alex, that it blocks. At least it confuses me, to have discussions, where I meet every time different terminology, where are given opinions, based on thinking, logically and possible. I like the facts and the sources. Much information is in this thread:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...al-preferences

Anyway the discussion goes beyond the "builders and repair" and will be interesting on the classical section as well.

[brunello97]

Thanks, Margriet, for linking that very interesting conversation to this one. And if we can only get the historical bro' Eug back here that will have to do. As I know little about all this it is interesting reading for me (though I admit to being typically uninterested in historical pud pulling.)

If it is possible I would graciously ask that the participants seek to ILLUSTRATE their points now and then with a selected photo, or graphic. I realize this is not a small request as finding and posting photos is time consuming, but it definitely would broaden/deepen the scope of the conversation both for current readers (and eavesdroppers) as well as folks 8+ years further down the road who will no doubt continue to find these conversations illuminating.

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

Unfortunately I don't think we have enough information about the 'why' in 18th century Italy to make definite pronouncements about at least some aspects of the evolution of plucked instruments. There are only so many surviving instruments that can tell the story, and we can't know what the others which have disappeared over the past 200 years or so might have told us. The more I find out, the more I realize I have to discover and I make no pretense at doing primary source research in libraries I can't access in languages I can't read.

Anyway here are pics of five of the six mandolins that Stephen Morey examined for his book, where there is more information about each one. The pics are named to indicate their origins. These are very rough scans from the negs.

Brussels Museum 531 has a label Guiseppe io... dated 1776 with a string length of 31.8cm
DNM MIR871 (from the German National Musuem in Nuremberg) has a label by Guippe Tovia (or something similar) of Brescia with a string length of 32cm. No date
DNM MIR869 label by Carlo Sauli Brescia 1761. String length 31.2cm
DNM MIR870 label by Giacomo Mora of Bagolino 1761 String length 32.8cm
Geemente Musuem Ec5-1957 label by Matteo Scolari Cremona 1799. String length 33.2cm

cheers

graham

[nhanduti]

Hi all,

Appart the terminology, I found the discussion verry cunstructive and instructive, thanks! so I've found this plan, that they called Mandore, if someone know the real name of this, please share to us

I hoppe this plan can help you.

Paulo

[Graham McDonald]

The Crane plan is probably based on a Milanese made 6 course gut-strung mandolin, based on the string length and the little fan braces near the bridge. He does say that it based on measurements and estimates rather than a particular instrument, but a Cremonese instrument could be made from the plans, though the purists might object

I have never seen the insides of a gut strung mandolin of this era, but the braces on the plan do look rather large. Quite prepared to be wrong on that though.

cheers

graham

[nhanduti]

Hi Graham,

Thanks for replay so fast Fisrt I need to say I like your instruments. Im not a purist, but I have some friends they are . In the Crane's site has a photo from the mandolin he based his drawing, that I post below. Also he did't said if G B E A D G are fom treble to bass or bass to trable strings. Maybe the braces on the plan can be large, I think he based in a Lute braces to do this, I have a friend who make lutes and he said the same as you, and he think the sound hole is too big for the body size. I think the body from photo is a bit larger then his (?).

I pretend build a mando (can I say mando?) like this, but with a bit larger body and maybe 5 course whith mandolin tune with a B or C bass, wood or bone frets too. Maybe it works... the problem I think, are the strings tention, that I have no idea which nylon strings can be used.

but this is another question, not for this thread, i think.

p.