The curse of the banana neck!

[Tavy]

Thought I'd scored a winner with this one:



Unfortunately it has a neck as straight as a boomerang



Also lots of signs of previous not so good repairs.... looks like it's going to have to be a full rebuild.... again

You would think by now that I'd know what to look out for, but apparently not!

[Tavy]

This one proved to be the hardest top removal yet - as well as having to remove all the edge decoration - there was so much glue everywhere it turned into a bit of a nightmare

Here's the removed top, note the excess glue and the drill holes where the builder drilled right through the top when inserting the MOP decoration. Anyone any idea what the two small square reinforcers are for?



And here's the bowl - lots of split seams to reglue, and clearly someone has been here before - tons of old glue, and the lining doesn't look original (or all that well stuck down).



What you can't see here, is that someone has had the neck off before - but rather than separate the neck+block in one piece from the bowl, they've cut a U-shape into the neck block. I've now separated the neck along this old repair: tons of cleaning up to do now before I can even begin to start putting things back together!

[Jim Garber]

You are a brave man, John! However, when you are done with this it should be something to be proud of. I imagine there is some satisfaction to be gained from cleaning up a mess like that and making a beautiful playable instrument again.

[brunello97]

Good luck with the repairs, John. I will keep an eye on your neck reset process, that is something I am trying to learn to do on these Italian bowlbacks. That is some serious surgery! Any additional photos of that area of your work would be greatly appreciated......I have a Vinaccia that may need a reset, though I am not inclined to try it myself on such an instrument.

You have a real thing for these Stridentes, which I admire. This looks like a decent mandolin though, with the addition of the simple reinforcement pieces on the top and some attempt to shape the braces. No idea about the small square reinforcements unless they might have been later additions to prevent some top cracking? I do enjoy the double rows of binding, the 'Sienese' black/white along with the MOP arabesques.

I love that purple paper that some of the Neapolitan builders used to line the interiors. I am going to check at a local paper store here to see if I can find something similar. I am working on the repair of an old Cristofaro right now (the neck is fine but the bowl was splintered). The bowl was lined with old newspaper which I look forward to reading once the bowl is repaired and I can take the top off.

Thanks for posting, I look forward to seeing more from this interesting project. It will be a nice mandolin once again when you are all finished.

Mick

[Tavy]

Good luck with the repairs, John. I will keep an eye on your neck reset process, that is something I am trying to learn to do on these Italian bowlbacks. That is some serious surgery! Any additional photos of that area of your work would be greatly appreciated......I have a Vinaccia that may need a reset, though I am not inclined to try it myself on such an instrument.

I'll try and post some more photos shortly, I'm not sure how much it will help you though as someone had effectively just "cut the neck out" previously. It all came apart as a bit of mess, so there's some serious cleaning up to do, but at least I can see a way to put it all back togther!

You have a real thing for these Stridentes, which I admire. This looks like a decent mandolin though, with the addition of the simple reinforcement pieces on the top and some attempt to shape the braces. No idea about the small square reinforcements unless they might have been later additions to prevent some top cracking?

The instrument is interesting in a way - looks like the standard somewhat flimsy Stridente bowl (straight off the production line?) - but the bracing appears to have been carefully shaped, and looks more like the Vinaccia style bracing actually. There's also been some care applied to the central reinforcement strip and the neck reinforcer - you don't usually get those on Stridentes.

The small squares appear to be original, and there are no repairs, cracks or decorations above them so I'm stumped. The only time I've heard of something similar is when luthiers something attach some extra weight to the top to fine tune the vibration modes. Did the bowlback makers ever so that though? Violin makers of the period certainly did, but I can't imagine the same happening for canted top mandolin?

John.

[Graham McDonald]

The only thing I could think of for the little inside cleats would be as re-enforcement for a DeMeglio type string hold down behind the bridge, which the instrument doesn't have. Which could then raise all manner of interesting questions about jobbing out various parts of the production process. I am pretty sure we have seen those scalloped bracing shapes of quite a few restoration projects (Dave Hynds, where are you?).

cheers

graham

[Tavy]

The only thing I could think of for the little inside cleats would be as re-enforcement for a DeMeglio type string hold down behind the bridge, which the instrument doesn't have. Which could then raise all manner of interesting questions about jobbing out various parts of the production process. I am pretty sure we have seen those scalloped bracing shapes of quite a few restoration projects (Dave Hynds, where are you?).

Graham you beat me too it, I had the same thought while lying in bed last night! And since we know there were all kinds of specialist makers building "standard" inlay patterns and other goodies, it makes sence if a shop like Stridente were basically just assembling them from outsourced parts. And yes, those scalloped braces do seem to be pretty common, whether the scalloping had any beneficial effect though is another matter...

[dave17120]

Don't worry John, you are not alone!!!!!!!

[Tavy]

Here's the old neck join - or I should really say "old neck repair" - after minimal cleanup:



New wood was needed to pack out the join, and give me the required angle, so the "socket" got shimmed:



This is truly horrible "joint" - even with a good fit the rounded nature of the socket means there's much too much wriggle room for comfort. I have to say too, that the direction of pull of the strings is cunningly designed to pull this apart. No doubt that's why the neck ended up the way it did

If there was enough material in the neck "stump" I'd square it off and convert it to a dovetail, unfortunately I feel it would end up too thin and fagile if I did that.... so the current plan is to glue it back up, reinforce with a new extention to the neck block, and then pin everything together so that the pins take most if not all the strain.

For sure if I do it right it will be next to impossible to disassemble again - but then again it shouldn't need it - the only alternative I can see is to chop the stump right off, fit a whole new neck block, and make the neck "bolt on". However, that's a whole ton of work, and I've spent a lot of time on this join already....!

[Tavy]

The after hesitating for more time than I care to admit, the neck gets glued back on:



It's amazing how much downward pressure you can get from nothing but tape - I tried more dry runs than I care to admit - but this seemed to work the best. The first couple of bits of tape just hold things together while I check the alignments. Then the piece over the fretboard pushes the headstock end down. Finally the piece over the wood block is the one that really has to be tight - by counteracting the leverage of the one over the fingerboard the join gets pushed in real tight. Now I just have to hope there's no slippage or sliding about while it sets....

[Tavy]

Last post now for another while I suspect - while the neck was setting I started cleaning up the top - here it is half done:



And pretty much done, amazing both how much muck there was, but also how much crusty old glue had been left smeared over the top next to the fingerboard!



I do love the way these clean up though

[brunello97]

Nice photos, John, thanks for posting. Now I see why you were comping this to the disassembled Ditson I posted in that other thread. I look forward to the "reinforce it with an extension to the neck block" and the "pinning" operations.

Mick

[dave17120]

"The bowl was lined with old newspaper which I look forward to reading once the bowl is repaired and I can take the top off."I have a friend who makes statues in wood, and he uses newspaper down the centre so he can split the whole thing once its put together, so he can hollow it out. I reckon the newspaper does the same job for the mando bowl.... enabled them to get it off the mould.
"I am pretty sure we have seen those scalloped bracing shapes of quite a few restoration projects"
Yep, I'm here.... and you are right, those bracing shapes were quite common on all sorts of makes.... the better ones usually. The cheapies tended to be straight across.
I must say I am surpried at the round neck/heel joint. Do you think it was original, or the result of an old repair???

Here's what you normally find on an Italian bowl heel....

[Tavy]

I must say I am surpried at the round neck/heel joint. Do you think it was original, or the result of an old repair???

I'm pretty certain it was a repair - there's a clear old scar / cut line around the neck and through the bindings - looks like they just took the top off and then cut the neck out best they could

[Marc Woodward]

Interesting thread John, good to see you're there tending to the injured, healing the sick - the Mother Teresa of Mandoland!

It'll be a nice instrument when you've finished the treatment!

Marc

[Tavy]

Interesting thread John, good to see you're there tending to the injured, healing the sick - the Mother Teresa of Mandoland!

It'll be a nice instrument when you've finished the treatment!

Marc

I hope so, I'm beginning to think it might have been easier to build a new one.... don't quote me on that though!!

[Tavy]

Update: after cleaning up the heal, I found the "conventional" join also in place, so the way this one separated was definitely down to an earlier repair.

Meanwhile back at the bench.... first off a new block of mahogany goes in - it butts up against the old heal, and is also fitted to the instruments sides (excluding the cut outs obviously). The rod on top is a 6mm carbon fibre pin that will run as shown through the new block, the neck stump/join and into the neck proper. Comes to a halt at about the 7th fret. I would have taken it further up the neck to act as a partial truss rod, but that was as far as my drill bit would go, more than far enough for a pin though:



A second similar pin (not shown) also goes through the new block but lower down and into the lower half of the heal block. Then two more CF pins go in from the top at jaunty angles so they can go a good way into the block:



Scraped knuckles and strong words all round drilling the holes for these!

And finally, no restoration is complete without the ubiquitous mandolin bondage shot:



Just try not to admit it if you enjoyed that one

I think tomorrow sometime, I'll probably just slap some strings on this one as it is, and leave for a week or so just to check how it's all holding up... after that I suspect it'll need a new fingerboard as well as everything else it's had...

[brunello97]

Awesome work, John, thanks for the pictures and descriptions. I like the built-up neck block strategery. One question: can you translate 'jaunty angles' into, uh, American? Is this similar to the 'rakish tilt' with which I–sometimes–wear my hat?

Mick

[dave17120]

That looks like one hefy heel extension John, is it all left in there???

[Tavy]

Awesome work, John, thanks for the pictures and descriptions. I like the built-up neck block strategery. One question: can you translate 'jaunty angles' into, uh, American? Is this similar to the 'rakish tilt' with which I–sometimes–wear my hat?

That would be the way yes

[Tavy]

That looks like one hefy heel extension John, is it all left in there???

Yes it's all in there - just nicely fills the space between the existing heal and the reinforcing plate on the underside of the top.

I could have thinned it down I guess, but I wanted something chunky for the CF to really bed into so there was no chance of it being pulled up by moving in the socket. To put it in perspective it roughly doubles the size of the old block, and maybe more than doubles the weight of the old block - although that still doesn't add much in the great scheme of things. Time will tell depending how it plays I guess.

Clearly this is quite radical surgury - with some very modern materials which also require modern glues - so not exactly sensitive restoration. But.... I couldn't see an alternative that would adequately strengthen a neck that had already been badly hacked about, and which was also cost effective for what will be a very pretty but not outrageously expensive instrument. Tricky call!

[brunello97]

That looks like one hefy heel extension John, is it all left in there???

A 'hefy' heel extension? Show some mercy on us Yanks, amigos. (Though, I am by no means a Yankee.)

Mick

[Tavy]

After a bit of an hiatus on this one, it must be time for an update - the old fingerboard had obviously been relevelled many times in the past, leaving next to no material behind with which to obtain a new level. So the old board is taken off, leaving just a trace of it over the soundboard to act as a shim and provide the proper level. Note how the fret slots had been cut down into the neck proper as the old board got thinner and thinner through successive previous repairs. Also the dark line marking the end of the soundboard wood around the 9th fret, and the dot marker holes cut right through the board.

[Jim Garber]

Those Italian mandolins almost always have pretty thin boards tho I am not sure why. The Americans put thicker ones on FWIW.

[brunello97]

John, I have noticed this as well on a few Italian bowls I have repaired. Do you think the slots might have been originally cut with the fretboards already on the necks?

Mick