all things being equal.. oval sound holes versus f holes

**brewcrew82** · Jun-09-2011, 1:05am

I'm sure this has been asked before, so feel free to ignore or reply. F holes verus Oval hole in general tone and sound.

**Ivan Kelsall** · Jun-09-2011, 1:28am

There's no 'specific' answer to your question. The tonal / volume properties will differ with each maker & style. I can only say that at the time i owned 2 Weber Mandolins at the same time,one an "F" hole 'Fern' & the other an oval hole,"A" style 'Beartooth',that the Fern was more 'refined' in tone & although loud enough for any purpose,it was easily surpassed by the Beartooth,which had incredible volume but a less refined tone.The Fern had (still has) superb intonation all the way up the neck as far as you need to go. The volume which was good at the time,took on a whole new dimension after a very minor truss rod adjustment 18 months or so ago.The Beartooth (it should have simply been called the "Bear") had awesome volume.The bass was shudderingly deep & the trebles clean & strong. Playing chop chords on the Beartooth,could knock plaster off the walls. As i said,it depends on the maker
& style - there are so many different permutations on volume & tone out there. Take your time in choosing a Mandolin. Play as many as you can of 'all' styles & prices,use the ones that you can't afford but like,as a yardstick for evaluating the ones that you can afford - ''buy in haste,repent at leisure'',
Ivan

**John Flynn** · Jun-09-2011, 1:44am

The stereotype is that F holes produce a more focused, projective kind of sound, good for cutting through the volume of other instruments on solos and on chop chords. They are the preferred type for bluegrass, although good for other things also. I find many of them tend to have better treble response than ovals.

The stereotype of oval holes is they tend to have a more mellow tone, a little more sustain, more bass response than F holes. They tend to be preferred for old-time and Irish music, but they are good for other things also.

These are just stereotypes. Individual instruments of both types can vary widely. The builder, the bracing, the wood choices, whether you have a raised fretboard or attached, all change the characteristics.

**allenhopkins** · Jun-09-2011, 1:52am

Conventional wisdom: f-holes = sharper, more percussive, strong attack, quick decay. Oval holes = more sustain, longer "ring," sweeter rather than sharper tone, perhaps a tad more bass end.

As Ivan K wisely points out, there are many many variations in mandolin design and construction, and soundhole shape is only one of them. Carved-top vs. flat or "canted" top, body shape/depth, type of wood, type of finish, scale length, bracing pattern, laminated vs. solid wood, etc. etc. So, as the axiom goes, "No generalization is worth a damn -- including this one."

If you look at what musicians are playing what type of music on each style, you'll find that the huge majority of bluegrass players are using f-hole mandolins, and that probably the majority of Celtic mandolinists are using oval-hole instruments. Lots of noted exceptions to each rule, of course. The difference may say something about various "orthodoxies," or the influence of well-known players in each genre, but it also probably says something about the sound each type of instrument produces -- again, in general -- and that sound's suitability for various musical styles.

**barney 59** · Jun-09-2011, 4:34am

In general is right---Jimmy Martin's f4 is being talked about on another thread ---oval hole and a cornerstone of bluegrass.
The biggest difference from a players standpoint. With an f holed mandolin you have to stand about 6 feet out facing a tiled shower stall to hear what your mandolin sounds like. With an oval hole what you hear is what you got.

**Ivan Kelsall** · Jun-09-2011, 6:14am

One thing i should have pointed out in my first post,is that my Weber "Fern" is 'tone bar' braced & my "Beartooth" was 'X' braced amongst other structural differences,many of which most likely apply across other makers as well,
Ivan

**Goodin** · Jun-09-2011, 7:51am

After owning and playing several F-holed and Oval hole mandolins, vintage and new, playing bluegrass and now Trad Irish music mostly, I completely agree with the generalizations that John and Allen mentioned.

I will add that in my experience F-holed mandolins which usually have a longer neck, are better for bluegrass playing than the shorter necked oval hole mandolins because it's easier to do chop chords and fancy soloing up the neck.

**farmerjones** · Jun-09-2011, 7:59am

The first time i probably said, it's a boom(oval) vs. bark (f).
Thinking about it a little more, I'd imagine an F hole style, one would hear more of the top plates tone. With an oval hole, it's letting some of the tone generated by the backside of the top plate, including what happens when tone bounces off the back, then out the hole. This complexity/blending of tone could be called "richer." Simplicity of tone could be called cleaner or clearer. As a bell would create tone from it's outside skin, and also from it's inerds.

**Ed Goist** · Jun-09-2011, 8:01am

Fantastic overview by those who have already posted.
I'll only add two subjective observations:
* Because of the differences and nuances between ff-hole and oval hole mandolins, I think it is nice to own at least one of each!

* If I were forced to own just one mandolin, it would be an arched-top, ff-hole with J74 strings. In my opinion, this combination provides the most tonal diversity and flexibility. One can quite effectively play just about any style on music on such a mandolin.

**JeffD** · Jun-09-2011, 8:07am

My personal experience is in line with the above. For the kind of things I like to do on the mandolin, I much prefer an oval hole. I like the sustain and the volume and the tone and the "legato" feeling of a series of individual notes. And the only compromise I make in this choice is perhaps the chop. I can chop just fine with an oval hole, but an f hole instrument might make a little snappier chop.

Also the type of sound hole might make a difference in playing technique. The f hole mandolin seems to project in a focused pattern. It helps to kind of aim it as you play. For playing into a mike or pickup this is not as important, but accoustically, the folks across from you hear the most with an f hole.

Again there are exceptions. I have been fooled by the Collings MT, an f hole mandolin that seems to have that wonderful lush complicated tone quality I more often associate with oval holes.

If I had to own only one mandolin, I would not be happy.

**Ed Goist** · Jun-09-2011, 8:14am

Oh, one more thing to add...
I have completely dropped the concept that certain types of mandolins are "must have" or "can't have" for certain musical styles.
The eye-opener for me on this was a class I recently took taught my classical mandolin player Carlo Aonzo. During the class he mentioned how much he enjoyed playing other styles of music, and then commenced to play the most crushing Bluegrass chop chords and wailing Blues riffs I've ever heard on his Neapolitan-style bowlback mandolin.
Bottom line...A competent player can play anything on anything.

**JEStanek** · Jun-09-2011, 8:29am

I've not let a lack of competency get in the way of acquisitions. I can't really add anymore data than what has been so well given. Welcome to the Cafe!

Jamie

**JeffD** · Jun-09-2011, 8:52am

Originally Posted by JEStanek

I've not let a lack of competency get in the way of acquisitions.

**journeybear** · Jun-09-2011, 9:17am

Originally Posted by JeffD

If I had to own only one mandolin, I would not be happy.

Warning: semantic nitpicking ahead:

If I had to own only one mandolin, I would not be unhappy.

That is, there's a world of difference between having one and having none - be it only one instrument or only one letter. You can't play one if you don't have one. If I didn't have one - oh, just too awful to think about!

That said, I too enjoy my oval hole tremendously. That's what I started with, and after thirty years with an F-12, that is what I have again. I like the low end boom, and the sustain - it really suits me. I do miss the look of the F model - so futuristic and sexy - but I am slowly accepting the suitability of this one. I do also have an A model with f holes - an A-00 from about 1935 - but this sounds much more like it, whatever "it" is. The A-00 has other issues, too - flat back, with some serious cracks in it - and just doesn't have the resonance of this one. Plus, as JeffD pointed out, it is possible to chop on this when called for. It is a technique of play, not a quality of build.

In other words, there are other factors than the type of soundholes, though that is a factor.

**mandolino maximus** · Jun-09-2011, 9:43am

What would an f-hole bowlback sound like? Maybe I should have one of those too.

**Tim2723** · Jun-09-2011, 9:54am

Originally Posted by mandolino maximus

What would an f-hole bowlback sound like? Maybe I should have one of those too.

A mandolin with a flat top, a round back, and soundholes off to the sides? It might sound like an Ovation. Seriously. It just might.

**Ed Goist** · Jun-09-2011, 10:41am

Originally Posted by mandolino maximus

What would an f-hole bowlback sound like? Maybe I should have one of those too.

Where's Waldo?

**bazooka47** · Jun-09-2011, 1:25pm

I will do an occasional "shootout" between my oval F-Style (x-braced Weber vintage), and its F-Hole nemesis (tone bar Collings MF5). My experience is consistent with the learned posts above. Each sounds big in its own way.

Gotta like ovals. As much as I love the MF5, it would be difficult to part with the Weber- and its cousins:

**Nonprophet** · Jun-09-2011, 2:18pm

Originally Posted by bazooka47

I will do an occasional "shootout" between my oval F-Style (x-braced Weber vintage), and its F-Hole nemesis (tone bar Collings MF5). My experience is consistent with the learned posts above. Both sound big in their own way.

Gotta like ovals. As much as I love the MF5, it would be difficult to part with the Weber- and its cousins:

Wow! Mandolin cloning is here!!! lol

Seriously, that is a very nice looking Weber trio you have there....

NP

**Nonprophet** · Jun-09-2011, 2:25pm

I'm definitely partial to oval holes, for a couple of reasons. First, I like the "sweeter tone" and stronger bass that ovals produce. Most f-hole mandos seem too bright/harsh to my ears. I'm not a performer, so 80% of the time I'm playing for myself and I want to be able to hear what I'm playing (lol, most of the time anyway!). Second, I don't play a ton of bluegrass, so chop cords aren't high on my list. Third, I like having something different, and it seems like everybody and their brother wants a "Loar clone" an F-5 with tobacco sunburst and f holes--and to me that's waaaay overdone. Lastly, I see a fair number of f hole mandos that develop cracks around the f-holes.
NP

**bazooka47** · Jun-09-2011, 2:49pm

Originally Posted by Nonprophet

Wow! Mandolin cloning is here!!! lol

Seriously, that is a very nice looking Weber trio you have there....

NP

Thanks- they do, in fact, seem a bit 'inbred', both with regard to looks and tone- but that's a good thing.

Hey, I see you play a Bridger A. My son plays one that I bought him years back, and that mando has the sweetest bell-like tone- I call it a "mystical" sound. It really is a fine instrument.

**Mike Bunting** · Jun-09-2011, 2:58pm

I play my Stanley for bluegrass but for country, old time and to accompany singing, I really like my A Jr. (oval hole). When people are looking for inexpensive mandolins, these beauties are often overlooked.

**JEStanek** · Jun-09-2011, 3:25pm

NP,
I've not heard of a propensity for f hole cracks in soundboards. It certainly has not popped up frequently on the boiards here. Anyway, I also prefer the oval sound (even cant topped mandolins with flat backs) for my own ears and style. That bridger you have was one of the first, IIRC, to use a D/oval hole, on a long neck (14 fret join instead of 12. The Birdger F style was my fantasy instrument when I first got into the mandolin.

Jamie