What is a Jazz Mandolin?

[dcoventry]

I just wanted to restart a popular discussion on what makes for a "Jazzy Mandolin" sound. Now, I now much of the sound and style comes from a players fingers, but this is directed at what the instrument brings on it's own.

Ready, set, go!!!

[Glassweb]

The musics considered "jazz" have been played on nearly every type of mandolin in creation - both round and F hole; so I can't understand why people go on about "jazz mandolins".

[Larry S Sherman]

Jethro's impact on the mando culture has made a 2-point oval-hole a jazz mandolin icon, so I think it can be associated with jazz perhaps more than other types of mandolins. This is exactly the same as associating a F-5 with Bluegrass due to Bill Monroe, when the instrument was invented for classical, and we also know that great bluegrass has been played on oval holes.

Then perhaps you could argue that the instrumentation of jazz can be different, and that there might be less need to cut through to overcome a 5-string banjo? In that case the oval-hole sound might be more acceptable in a jazz setting. But Don Stiernberg certainly sounds great in this setting, so it's obviously not a rule.

I think the most persuasive argument might be that a true "jazz mandolin" might be built with iconic jazz guitar specifications, such as block inlays, art deco headstock inlay, fancy tailpiece, and non-tradtional colors (green, blue, red, etc). Obviously doesn't mean that you are married to jazz playing a jazzy-looking mandolin, but it just looks more appropriate in that style.

But in the end I actually agree with Glassweb in the sense that there is no real jazz mandolin, and might even go on to say there's no celtic or bluegrass mandolin either. The material and player are more important. But there is a cultural/artistic influence on whioch one might buy, and tonalities that work better in each setting.

Larry

[Brent Hutto]

I've never heard another jazz mando player whose tone I prefer to Don Stiernberg's. A couple of others may be equally fine but Don's just always pleases no matter what the song or ensemble.

Now of course that has more to do with Don than with the instrument but I can't help but believe his non-iconic choice of mandolin helps him get that particular lovely tone. It sure doesn't hurt, at any rate!

[Ted Eschliman]

I'll weigh in as one of the world's biggest fans of using a mandolin for jazz, but my taste for warm fundamentals to make way for the more complex overtones in extended chord harmonies will run counter the the Gypsy Jazz session player that needs an acoustic bite to cut through the ensemble. I've found the definition of what a jazz mandolin is becomes as wide as the genre itself.

Warm, dulcet L5 guitar or penetrating Gypsy back beat? Any good instrument with versatility should be capable of both jobs.

[Ed Goist]

I'd say a good "Jazz Mandolin" is a mandolin with the neck/fretboard/action designed specifically to provide the player with easy access to complex and rapidly variable closed-position chord shapes. Of course, the requirements to make this possible will vary from player to player.

Actually, I've formed this definition based on reading Ted E's many fine mandolin reviews. Ted will often comment how a mandolin's neck profile, fretboard radius, or action will affect its compatibility with closed position chording.

Finally, of course, according to this definition, ANY mandolin becomes a "Jazz Mandolin" in the hands of a Mandolin Chordmaster. (Mandolin Chordmaster - We should make that an official title! )

[SternART]

my taste for warm fundamentals to make way for the more complex overtones in extended chord harmonies

That pretty much defines what I look for.

[dcoventry]

Ted,

Thanks for that short and sweet pronouncement, it makes a lot of sense.

Can you offer examples of mandolins you think exemplify these attributes? And yes, I have scoured your site and drooled aplenty. Oh, and learned a whole heap about what I don't know!

[JeffD]

Jethro's impact on the mando culture has made a 2-point oval-hole a jazz mandolin icon, so I think it can be associated with jazz perhaps more than other types of mandolins. This is exactly the same as associating a F-5 with Bluegrass due to Bill Monroe, when the instrument was invented for classical, and we also know that great bluegrass has been played on oval holes.

Well said.

[Dave Cohen]

What exactly is meant by a "warm fundamental"? I ask, because the closest thing to an understanding of "warm" is a tone with relatively high amplitude of the fundamental, aka 'first harmonic', relatively high amplitudes as well of the lower harmonics in a given tone, and relatively low amplitudes of the higher harmonics in that tone. A tone with relatively high amplitudes of higher harmonics is usually characterized as"bright", though it might also be characterized as "nasal", depending which harmonics (i.e., even, odd, every 4th, etc.) are weak or absent. Add to that the fact that you can make an instrument sound "warmer" by plucking the string(s) near the 12th fret, and you can make the same instrument sound "brighter" and more nasal by plucking the string(s) close to the bridge saddle, and it gets pretty confoozing.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[JeffD]

Warm, dulcet L5 guitar or penetrating Gypsy back beat? Any good instrument with versatility should be capable of both jobs.

There it is.

[foldedpath]

What I like about Jethro's influence, and also Andy Statman's and Dawg's, is that it carves a niche for an acoustic mandolin tone.

I like the "darker" sound of electric and acoustic/electric mandolins with a humbucker too, and I suppose my Breedlove/Zenkl mandola with its humbucker could be considered a jazz mandolin(dola) in that respect. But sometimes it can sound a little too much like a traditional archtop jazz guitar that's just capo'd up high. With Jethro, Dawg, Statman and the rest, there's no question you're hearing a mandolin.

One more thing: I think any type of mandolin can work for jazz, but it does need to have good clean note production all the way up and down the fingerboard. I've played a few mandolins -- mostly on the lower end of the price spectrum -- where the notes start to get weak when you move up the neck, and out of first position. You'd want that for Bluegrass too, but you really need it for jazz.

[Jeff Budz]

A mandola is a Jazz mandolin. I'm kidding, of course, but really like my FF mandola for playing jazz because it's larger body gives more "woof", longer scale makes fingering chords easier, and it's range is in the "sweet spot" of a guitar.

I'm not sold on acoustic mandolin in a jazz quartet as a guitar replacement, but I think a 5 string e-mando would do nicely.

Anyone listen to Jazz Mandolin project? I think he mostly uses acoustic mandolins with pickups and lots of FX.

[John Rosett]

The cheap mandolins are for playing jazz...
...since there's no money in it.

[John McGann]

The cheap mandolins are for playing jazz...
...since there's no money in it.

Yeah, if you want to get rich, stick with bluegrass!

I like an instrument that has sustain when you want it, so you don't have to resort to tremolo every time you want a note to last more than 12 nanoseconds...ability to play up the fingerboard and not have 'thunk' on the low strings...good balance across the spectrum of strings, responsiveness to dynamics and tone color changes as you move the pick from bridge toward fingerboard, and a radiused fingerboard with larger-than-old-school frets.

All personal preferences, and may not meet a "universal criteria" for "jazz mandolin".

[John Rosett]

Yeah, if you want to get rich, stick with bluegrass!

I know the bluegrassers are making big bucks. Just look at Doyle Lawson's jacket!

[Trevor Thomas]

My experience of jazz and bluegrass as a mandolin player is that you can make literally dozens of dollars playing it.

[Brent Hutto]

I know the bluegrassers are making big bucks. Just look at Doyle Lawson's jacket!

I dunno. Have you seen John's hat? Pretty nice, although it would clash with Doyle's jacket I must say.

[journeybear]

One that devotes more time and effort to the pursuit of some addiction than music, and while developing a small but rabid following, either dies penniless in some cheap hotel room or finds a more satisfying fan base in Europe.

Oh wait - you asked What is a Jazz Mandolin?, not What is a Jazz Mandolinist? Ummm ... never mind ...

[catmandu2]

This might help (caution: naughty lingo):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfLfOkKn3M4&NR=1

[John Rosett]

I dunno. Have you seen John's hat? Pretty nice, although it would clash with Doyle's jacket I must say.

I've got a pretty stylin' gig hat too:

[John Rosett]

Seriously though(and so I don't totally hijack this thread), I agree with John. Good sustain, and even tone and volume up the neck are great things to have when playing jazz. I play an old Gibson oval hole, and it is especially great when played acoustically, where you can hear all the overtones and sustain. It also has plenty of volume for a small room with listeners.
On the other hand, guys like Mike Marshall and David Grisman can play pretty much any style on their Loars and sound just right.

[mandopete]

I kinda like hearing the 4-string mando for jazz.