A-Style Oval hole: any recommendations?

**Nele** · Apr-29-2011, 4:43am

Hi everyone!

I was looking for a decent A-style oval hole mandolin, max price would be $500. I have read a lot of posts around here and was thinking about a (used) Eastman MD 504 or a Kentucky KM 174. Is there a big difference between the two or does anyone have other suggestions? I have played a (classical) bowlback for 9 years (not intensively), but have no experience with other mandolins, so I would consider myself semi-beginner/intermediate.

The mandolin would be used to play mostly folk music and has to be loud enough to play along with other instruments (violin, accordion, guitar,...). As I live in Belgium I won't have a lot of opportunities to test several mandolins, so your help would be much appreciated. In fact, I don't know of any mandolin shop over here, so if by some miracle anyone knows one...

Thanks a lot in advance!

Nele

**baiyongjie** · Apr-29-2011, 5:02am

Moderator edit, please review posting guidelines:
Ebay, online auctions, Cafe Classifieds, direct dealer solicitations: while discussing online auctions or the classifieds is permitted, posting personal transactions for business or self-promotion is prohibited.

Very sorry I goofed up the rules! m(_ _)m (that's a Japanese bow of appology)
Is it possible to delete this post, or do I have to keep it as my scarlet letter?

**John Flynn** · Apr-29-2011, 6:30am

For the music you're playing, you might consider a flat-top. I think in that price range, the flat-tops tend to out-perform the arch-tops in almost all respects. You have to get way higher in price before the arch-tops come in to their own. I have no financial interest here, but that Flatiron Cadet in the Classifieds looks really nice. I have always wanted one of those! Some other possibilities might be a Mid-Missouri/Big Muddy. Their M-4 has really good volume and tone.

**Rvl** · Apr-29-2011, 7:09am

I know it is over your budget
I have a oval A type made by a Keith Newell
He is a member here on Mandolin Cafe
His price is $670 for a oval A mandolin

Newell also has an extra long 15.5" mandolin , I have one of these
It has more bass and a fuller sound
Very even playing up and down the neck

Keith Newell is an engineer who makes mandolins as a hobby
Do a search and decide for yourself
Handmade in the USA vs factory made in China
I live in Japan and Newell was very helpful

Thanks

Robert VanLane

**JeffD** · Apr-29-2011, 8:22am

Competing with an accordion is a challenge.

**Ed Goist** · Apr-29-2011, 8:49am

Hi Nele:
Good luck on your search.
I started a little over a year ago on a Kentucky KM-172 and have very fond memories of it. I thought it had very nice tone and playability for the money. A really nice mandolin.
Since you live in Europe, you may wish to contact the dealers whose sites I've listed below. They have all been recommended at one time or another here on the Cafe (though, I should say, I have no personal experience with any of them).
Good luck, and let us know what you decide on.

http://www.session.de/
http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/...-luithers.html
http://n-a-g.info/
http://www.folkladen.de/index2.html
http://www.streichholz-schachtel.de/

**Jim Garber** · Apr-29-2011, 9:50am

Originally Posted by Nele

I have played a (classical) bowlback for 9 years (not intensively), but have no experience with other mandolins, so I would consider myself semi-beginner/intermediate.

What is wrong with your bowlback? Any reason you need to get another instrument if you have one that works already? just asking...

**Nele** · May-01-2011, 2:24am

Thanks for the help!

John: The Flatiron was already sold, unfortunately. I don't know anything about Flatirons. How are they considering tone, volume, playability..? Also, they seem to have a quite specific shape, any reasons for this or differences towards 'normal' shapes? Thanks!

Robert: That's a very nice mando, especially for the price! But I'm not willing to spend more, because shipping costs will be quite a lot as well I guess..

Jeff: Indeed it is, but maybe it is possible to at least hear myself playing?

Ed: Thanks for the sites, extremely helpful! It got me thinking I should maybe start from the shops they have over here (Europe), because supply seems limited. Or wait until a good second-hand passes by.

Jim: There is absolutely nothing wrong with my bowlback, I love my instrument! It's just that I want to try something new. My bowlback is not really fit to play with a lot of other instruments. Guitars and piano works just fine, but if some others join, it's even hard to hear myself. I guess it was mainly build to play in classical arrangements. I would also love to travel with my mando, but my bowlback is too valuable to take with me, so I was looking for something of a 'reasonable' price.

Anyway, thanks a lot everyone! I think I will do some more research, send some emails to shops in Europe and keep an eye on the classifieds. It's not really urgent to get that mandolin, I'd rather be totally certain about it. I will post some pictures when I decided!

Nele

**Rvl** · May-01-2011, 2:44am

I think I paid $55-65 for shipping to Japan
I ordered a semi hardcase $55 with mine so total was just under $800 including shipping

Thanks

Robert VanLane

**Dagger Gordon** · May-01-2011, 5:14am

Hobgoblin have a number of shops in England and do mail order. I was in their London store last June and was quite impressed with the knowledgeable staff and range of mandolins in your price range. I rather liked the black Kentucky 161, though it has F holes.

They have Kentucky KM-174 mandolins at 315 euros - within your budget I think.

http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/conte...e=cartmand.htm

**8ch(pl)** · May-01-2011, 5:15am

These Flatirons have not been made in more than a decade, which makes them hard to find. Also, I expect that people who have them are reluctant to let them go. The Big Muddyi is still being made. It was formerly called Mid Missouri. They are sometimes found in the classifieds, elsewhere, for around $350.

I own 2 Mid Missouris and am a strong supporter of them and of the newer Big Muddy brand. They are remarkable for playability, tone,volume, quality construction, great customer service, and understated plain look.

There are other Flat tops avaliable, made by Cumberland Acoustic (Resophonic Guitar) Traveller, Arches, by Will Parsons, Peter Sawchyn (Canadian Builder), and others. Trinity College makes a nice one, it can be ordered from The Twelfth Fret in Toronto or Elderley Instruments.

**Rob Gerety** · May-01-2011, 7:08am

Originally Posted by JeffD

Competing with an accordion is a challenge.

Ain't that the truth.

**Jill McAuley** · May-01-2011, 10:33am

Hmm, I would think that if you're needing to compete with other instruments then perhaps a mandolin with f-holes may be a better option for you. Also more selection in your price range if you go the f-hole route. I've got an Eastman 815 (f-holes) and comparing it to my old Weber Custom Gallatin (oval hole) hands down the Eastman is much louder. I'm not trying to throw a spanner in the works and obviously understand if you have a particular bias towards wanting an oval hole instrument.

Cheers,
Jill

**John Flynn** · May-01-2011, 11:53am

Originally Posted by Nele

Thanks for the help!

John: The Flatiron was already sold, unfortunately. I don't know anything about Flatirons. How are they considering tone, volume, playability..? Also, they seem to have a quite specific shape, any reasons for this or differences towards 'normal' shapes? Thanks!

Nele

The Flatiron in the ad is what is often called a "pancake" or "frying pan" body shape. It originated with a Gibson design that was created to be sold inexpensively to the troops in World War I, to build morale. That original design has become known as the "Army/Navy" model. It was sold after the war in the civilian market as the "Gibson Alrite." Despite their inexpenive construction, they have a good repulation for volume and tone and are sought after.

The design disappeared for many years until it was resurrected by the Flatiron company in Montana, I think in the late 70's, but I'm not sure. Thier pancake instruments were as good or better than the Gibson Army/Navy models. Flatiron was bought by Gibson, who discontinued the "pancakes." However, there are several small builders, such as Redline, who are making them now.

NFI, but I notice that Elderly has two used Flatiron pancakes in stock now.
http://www.elderly.com/brand/90U_flatiron.html

**Jim MacDaniel** · May-01-2011, 8:47pm

Another Flatiron pancake was just listed in the classifieds, this one an N1 model, which has quite a following on the boards - $425 shipped.

<NFI>

**Nonprophet** · May-01-2011, 10:11pm

Originally Posted by John Flynn

The Flatiron in the ad is what is often called a "pancake" or "frying pan" body shape. It originated with a Gibson design that was created to be sold inexpensively to the troops in World War I, to build morale. That original design has become known as the "Army/Navy" model. It was sold after the war in the civilian market as the "Gibson Alrite." Despite their inexpenive construction, they have a good repulation for volume and tone and are sought after.

Actually, that's not correct. The Gibson Alrite D was made in one year only, 1917. The Gibson "Army/Navy" model wasn't available until 1918 and was made until 1922. Many people mistakenly state the the Army/Navy model was the father of the American pancake mandolins, but in actuality the Gibson Alrite D was the first pancake-style mandolin built by Gibson followed one year later by the Army/Navy model.

NP

**Capt. E** · May-02-2011, 1:14pm

I would also suggest you get a Mid-Missouri / Big Muddy (a Flatiron would be even better, though generally sells for a good bit more). I agree they have very good tone, playability, and volume and used ones fit nicely in your budget. There are several models, all quite nice.

**Jill McAuley** · May-02-2011, 3:09pm

Not sure if ordering one from the States is a possibility for you but if so, this Hathaway is a new arrival over at Elderly Instruments, NFI on my part, but it's an oval and in your state price range:

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/names...--90U-5833.htm

Cheers,
Jill

**Nele** · May-03-2011, 2:23am

Wow, thanks for all the info, really helpful! These Flatirons are definitely instruments with an interesting history!

Actually, I'm quite attracted to the Paul Hathway. Anyone wants to share his/her experiences with this instrument/ builder? Would it be preferable to a flatiron/ mid-missouri?

Nele

**Dagger Gordon** · May-03-2011, 3:43am

Once again, I tried some at Hobgoblin in London. Nice. He's based in London - not too far from you.

http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/conte...php?MS=hathway

http://www.paulhathway.com/03.html

**blueron** · May-03-2011, 4:57am

Thanks for sharing the links to Paul Hathway's work, Dagger. His round-hole mandolins are attractive in an understated way. They look like flat-tops in a similar style to those of the Glasgow luthier, Jimmy Moon. Is that the case? I am guessing you might have played both makers' round-hole mandolins. If so, how do they compare in terms of quality of manufacture and sound?

ron

**Dagger Gordon** · May-03-2011, 5:25am

To be honest I only had a quick go on a couple of Hathways in London, so I would hesitate to generalise about his instruments, but I thought they were quite good.

I have also tried some Jimmy Moon stuff. Quite a lot of good players in Scotland use his instruments, so he certainly has a proven track record.

I couldn't really compare Hathway and Moon other than to say that they both have good reputations as far as I am aware.

I actually prefer not to appear to favour one maker over another, as I firmly believe that each individual instrument is a bit different and it's best if you try them yourself. Also factors like how hard you press on the strings can make a huge difference. I have seen mandolins which buzz like mad under my farmer's hands but which sound fine when played by their owners. I concluded that there was nothing wrong with these instruments, but they just didn't suit me.

**John Flynn** · May-03-2011, 5:29am

Originally Posted by Nele

Wow, thanks for all the info, really helpful! These Flatirons are definitely instruments with an interesting history!

Actually, I'm quite attracted to the Paul Hathway. Anyone wants to share his/her experiences with this instrument/ builder? Would it be preferable to a flatiron/ mid-missouri?

Nele

I've never played one, but FWIW, I've read that Paul McCartney has bought two Hathaways and plays one on the tune "Dance Tonight." He also reportedly owns a similar instrument by another builder, but I forget the name.

**PseudoCelt** · May-03-2011, 12:51pm

I have a tenor mandola made by Paul Hathway, essentially a larger version of the M1 mandolin, that I got used on Ebay. It has a nice tone, with good volume and probably the most sustain of any mandolin family instrument I've heard (maybe too much for some). I like the understated "organic" appearance.

The only bad thing about it is that the top appears to have sunk slightly. However, in the 4 years or so that I've had it, it hasn't moved any further and the action is perfect as it is, so I'm not too concerned. I haven't seen other Hathways to know if this is common.

In terms of general build quality, I might put Moon just above Hathway. Soundwise, they are a bit different, but both good. The one time I played Moon and a Hathway side-by-side, I preferred the sound of the Hathway (I actually bought a Fylde that day though).

Originally Posted by John Flynn

...I've read that Paul McCartney has bought two Hathaways and plays one on the tune "Dance Tonight." He also reportedly owns a similar instrument by another builder, but I forget the name.

Paul McCartney has a pair of mandolins made by Tony Dixon, one walnut, one cocobolo. I believe that one of those was used on Dance Tonight. Two Hathway mandolins were used in the video though - one was blown up with explosives.

Patrick

**fatt-dad** · May-03-2011, 1:55pm

+1 for the Flatiron pancake version of the Allrite/army-navy/frying-pan mandolin! Mine with light guage strings (what they are designed to wear) is fully powerful for a large (dozen or so) old-time jam - no kiddin'. You just can't believe how much sound comes from these pancakes!

f-d