Action vs. Sound: The Trade Off?

[LastMohican]

For any of you saw my post from a few days ago; "The Quality Instrument Bump"; I solved a big part of this mystery today.

I went back today to Music Go Round to play the much easier to play MK and there was a kid working there that is an AWESOME mando player (He plays here in town with The Relics).

He had me bring in the Washburn. He lowered the bridge. Instantaneously, my mando was A LOT easier to play. This, IMO, was a big part of what made the MK so playable. But, every time I've played the MK, my one complaint has always been, "It just seems too quiet!"

Now...(that I've gotten home and played it a lot) I realize that lowering the bridge has cut a lot of the sound out of the Washburn; particularly in the high end.

So, now I've come back to you cats for some more "expert" opinions: what's the right trade off?

Is it proper to kill some of the natural sound of the instrument in pursuit of easier play?

As a true novice; I just don't know the answer to this.

[mandolirius]

As a novice, yes it is the right decision. Later on, when you've developed more finger strength, you might find you can live with the action a bit higher. But novices don't need a physical fight with their instrument. Also, you'll learn other ways to bring out those sounds. Finally, you will find when you move up to a better instrument that they don't need the action cranked up to sound good.

[LastMohican]

And, correction, after a little online research-it's not The Relics; it's simply "Relic".

Their website can be found here:

http://www.relicbluegrass.com/

This kid could really play!

[Ed Goist]

...snip...you will find when you move up to a better instrument that they don't need the action cranked up to sound good.

Big +1. This one should definitely be filed in the "mandolin truths" section.
All of the very high quality mandolins I've played had very low action, and also had tone and volume to die for.

[Martin Jonas]

The "high action = good tone" bit is a prevailing myth, but has little basis in physics -- one sometimes hear the suggestion that a higher action increases the string break angle and thereby the downwards pressure on the bridge. A cursory consideration of the angles and forces involved readily shows that the change in break angle from an action change by 1mm is far less than the variability in break angle even between nominally identical instruments, so that's not a viable explanation (at least for archtop instruments -- it's a bit different for flattops instruments and some bowlbacks where the break angle can be very shallow indeed and therefore more affected by action changes). There's nothing about a high action that inherently improves the tone, and a low action is only detrimental to the tone if the strings are in some way impeded from oscillating freely. This means getting a good tone from low action is a matter of either setup or technique. Bridge saddle shape and notching is important, as is fretting and picking technique -- playing cleanly with low action requires hitting the strings precisely in the horizontal plane.

Martin

[Nick Triesch]

The most super huge sounding mandolin I have ever played was a Gibson Doyal Lawson F5 with super low action. Almost plaed itself! Same with Nuggett mandolins along with some Webers and many other high end mandolins I have played. Nick

[LastMohican]

The most super huge sounding mandolin I have ever played was a Gibson Doyal Lawson F5 with super low action. Almost plaed itself! Same with Nuggett mandolins along with some Webers and many other high end mandolins I have played. Nick

Where the heck can I get one of those?

(for less than $500...)

[mandolirius]

Where the heck can I get one of those?

(for less than $500...)

In your dreams. At least, if they're anything like mine.

[robert.najlis]

not for less than $500, I agree. But I would say that the Collings MT is getting there. Yes, it is true that I am selling mine, but it is not because of the sounds/action tradeoff. The sounds is great and the action is very low. For me the Collings MT was the least inexpensive way to break into that territory.

[Austin Koerner]

There's not really much trade off. I think you will get WAY better tone with a low action playing cleanly rather than playing less clean due to higher action. Even if it is louder, it won't make that big of a difference. I have even heard of some cases of mandolins getting louder when the action was lowered, the top was getting choked off by the tension or something.

[robert.najlis]

I agree, playing cleanly!

[LastMohican]

NEWSFLASH!!

Guys, you gotta forgive me but I just figured out another piece of this puzzle:

When I sat to play in the store the other day, they handed me a Golden Gate Mando pick. I liked it and even bought a few of them.

I just start playing again with a Dunlop .73 maxi-grip pick that I had been using and all the sound I THOUGHT I had lost from the bridge adjustment magically returned.

It was the rounded, heavier mando pick.

Sorry for the confusion. If this post doesn't confirm my novice status; nothing will!

[Rodney Riley]

Nope, just confirms that these little beasts we play with are very sensitive too. What other instruments have as many varied opinions on strings, picks (won't even mention any with Blue in the name), nut material, tuners, bridges, neck profile/width,(speed or not to speed) and tail pieces. And even that thang to keep it away from my belly. That just changing one, an owner will post "it made em really roar/easier to play "IMO"."

Like me, I rather like the semi-flat wound strings I put on my Weber this time, 'specially the wound A string.

[Ivan Kelsall]

LM - It seems that you found exactly what i found when i tried Golden Gate & 'Dawg' picks,they destroyed the tone from both my Mandolins. Thinner picks work best on mine, the 1 mm Wegen picks best of all,but other players find the GG picks great for them - 'horses for courses',
Ivan

[JeffD]

Confirmation that your choice of pick makes a huge difference.

[ralph johansson]

When I heard J D Crowe's band in Lexington, in 1969, I got a chance to try Doyle Lawson's mandolin (built by the late Homer Ledford of Winchester, KY). "Try" is the word because I could hardly fret the thing. Doyle swore by his high action. I found his tone dry in the extreme. A drum head can be too tight.

On the other hand, some younger cats set up their instruments so low that you can't really get a full-bodied tone from them. I recently tried a Collings mandolin (a blonde MF5)
and a Bourgeois Vintage Dread set up that way and the only remarkable thing about them was their weak voices. The owners, of course, expected the sound system do the work,
and handle the dynamics, for them.

The logical opposite of one extreme is not the other extreme.

OT: Homer Ledford is the old man in the Dig A Little Deeper video

[Patrick Bouldin]

At first I was wondering where Martin was going with the in-depth analysis, but now I get it, and agree - and let me sum it up from my experience. If I tell someone I think the action is too low, indeed I'm saying that the strings are being impeded and you end up with a bit of a tinny sound or even buzzing. So maybe the term to use is "set the action just right". Set it high enough where you don't hear the problem any more. So you can't assume someone who says "I was told to raise the action" means that it was already above the point in which problems stop. Also, agree 100% on the Wegen 1mm.

Patrick