Sunny Side of the Mountain Question

**Alex Orr** · Apr-13-2011, 11:38am

I love this tune but it also sort've drives me nuts. I love playing and singing it but I have a terrible time leading it. First off, as best as I can tell, it's a 28 bar song, or at least the Jimmy Martin version appears to be 28 bars to the verse...and I consider his version to sort've be the definitive take on the tune. However, I've often heard it played at jams (and on albums) with an even looser feel, basically following along the singer in terms of how long he wants to stretch out certain words. I've discovered that both of these things can drive folks nuts if they're somewhat unfamilar with the tune, partially because (IMO) many bluegrass standards are straight 16-bar tunes. This tune seems to drive bass players particularly crazy because they're counting the whole time and can't stand a song with an inexact number of bars to a measure that is being led by the whims of the vocalist. As a mandolin player, it's tough to lead because the instrument tends to not be a particularly dominant lead instrument for everyone to follow, and as a result, I can often lose count which sends the thing into a messy chaos of folks strumming without knowing when the changes are supposed to occur.

So, since I'd like to try "Sunny Side of the Mountain" at the next jam I attend, I was wondering from others who play the tune if I'm right in terms of it generally being a 28-bar song. And in a larger sense, I'm wondering if anyone has some on how folks go about leading songs that wildly depart from the 16-bar format?

**AlanN** · Apr-13-2011, 11:58am

Yes, this and others tunes like it can be a bear. Usually, the vocal has the latitude to stretch out, the break gets the normal treatment. Ruby, same thing.

**Alex Orr** · Apr-13-2011, 12:06pm

"Doing My Time" is another one that falls into that category.

**Fred Keller** · Apr-13-2011, 12:39pm

You have just encountered that bluegrass phenomenon known as "Jimmy Time." Best to just go with the flow. Oh, and if you think it's hard learning it from a recording, imagine how it was for some of his bandmates. I heard...think it was Bobby Osborne but maybe not...tell that Jimmy would blow into a festival with maybe a fiddler and a banjo. He'd send these folks out into the festival to find the most competent bass player or other picker they might need and have that person join them for Jimmy's show that night. Yikes.

**D C Blood** · Apr-13-2011, 1:11pm

It's a fairly common thing in a lot of bluegrass songs, that the vocals on the verses hold an extra beat (or more) after each line, but the instrumental breaks play straight through with no extra beat. This generally goes by whether the original artist (usually first or second generation pioneer) did it that way.

**Andy Alexander** · Apr-13-2011, 3:53pm

Jimmy does the same kind of thing with "You Don't Know My Mind".

**swampstomper** · Apr-14-2011, 6:37am

Listen to Peter Rowans on this tune, you will see how it can be stretched and compressed. Go with the feel of the singer. The instrumentalist can also suggest the next chord when it's time. There's a live version of Brakeman's Blues by the Punch Bros. on YouTube, really a tremendous performance, where both the vocalist (Chris T) and all instrumentalists stretch the V chord as long as they want before resolving to the I. You can do the same thing on the V of John Hardy. This requires a higher level of jam awareness. I'd go ahead and do it at your next jam, but warn people to listen for the timing by whoever is singing the verse or playing the break.

**AlanN** · Apr-14-2011, 7:03am

Funny, just picked this last night (with an excellent former banjo man from Jr. Sisk). We did it in a fluid way, the vocalist (me - ugh) took liberty with the vocal stretches and the band was good enough with big enough ears to hear where I was heading. On the breaks, we kept it regular. We also tried Crazy Creek, sort of worked. Banjo man told me one time Wyatt Rice joined Sisk band on stage and Wyatt picked this tune. Almost a train wreck.

**tree** · Apr-14-2011, 8:12am

Jimmy-time, I like that.

A lot of the old blues guys did this too, John Hooker, Muddy, etc. I heard somebody refer to it as "breaking time", so that's how I think of it now.

At any rate, it seems like a bona-fide technique, both vocally and instrumentally. Didn't WSM do a little of it with the earliest version of the BG Boys? If you're playing in the band, you'd better (apologies in advance, AlanN) get your big ears on . . .

**Markus** · Apr-14-2011, 8:30am

I do a song like this, where just one verse has added beats after the first line. [Milwaukee Here I Come, adapted version from George Jones]

In jam contexts, I play it without - except the one jam I attend where an old bandmate anchors it on bass. I'll move over to share a mic for the chorus with the bass player and he'll have it right. From there, the rest will eventually find the beat again.

There's a few other songs like Sunny Side that I chalk into the band context and skip at large open jams. The only jam I'll do this at is a kitchen table jam, where you can mention it before and communication always seems to be so much better. If you have experienced pickers - they probably know the song, know the issue, and know to be all ears during those parts ... it's songs like these that separate the men from the boys so to speak - the great players, if they miss, recover instantly. The new folks are thrown for a loop, it can go quite awry.

It's sad, as these are awesome songs but can be very tricky at a jam. I'd do your best to keep the bass player on board, he's your best bet getting everyone to hear and follow along [provided it's a good bass player]. If you lose the bass player, it's amazing how quick that turns bad.

**allenhopkins** · Apr-14-2011, 9:34am

Originally Posted by Fred Keller

...I heard tell that Jimmy would blow into a festival with maybe a fiddler and a banjo. He'd send these folks out into the festival to find the most competent bass player or other picker they might need and have that person join them for Jimmy's show that night. Yikes.

Go ya one better: at Bluegrass Canada in 1974, Mac Wiseman stopped the band that had just played and was going off the stage, said, "Stick around, boys," and played his set with them as his back-up. He showed up with just a guitar. Luckily he stuck to his "greatest hits" and the band backed him competently. I just thought to myself, bluegrass neophyte that I was at the time, "Jeez, what if that had been me, and I didn't know any of the songs?"

**JeffD** · Apr-14-2011, 10:53am

I have heard, often, that the vocalist leads. And that one of the skills of BG, or any band probably, is to be able to follow the whims of the vocalist.

I have heard some great stories of famous country, bluegrass, and folkie vocalists, who were not easy to follow. One in particular who sang in the key she wanted to sing in, and the band had to scramble to find it and play in it, all live on stage, and regardless of how it was rehearsed.

**AlanN** · Apr-14-2011, 11:08am

Bill Monroe was notorious for not telling the band the next key. He would do one chop before the tune and that would be it.

"You with me, boy?"

**Markus** · Apr-14-2011, 11:09am

Originally Posted by JeffD

One in particular who sang in the key she wanted to sing in, and the band had to scramble to find it and play in it, all live on stage, and regardless of how it was rehearsed.

You mean like the banjo player at the last jam, who despite having a capo, insisted in playing Old Joe Clark in G. I've heard it done, but around here at jams everyone plays it in A. There were a lot of confused people [fiddles, mandolins] who shook our head at the capo-users insisting on weird keys, the tune somewhat failed as half the jammers didn't want a break.

If it comes up next jam, I bet it plenty of people will have it down ... but the song was tentative and uninspiring, much in the way these odd-timing songs tend to go.

**AlanN** · Apr-14-2011, 11:16am

Yeah, we've talked about this before. Some tunes were meant for a given key. In a jam, odd keys for tunes normally done in another key are a problem. But, I have heard good versions of both OJC (Bobby Clark on his Top Dog record, in G) and Bill Cheatum (Stuart Duncan on Pre-Sequel, in G), where the normal key is eschewed for another.

**Ivan Kelsall** · Apr-15-2011, 1:01am

Getting to another point associated with the OP's question,i have the same problem with songs with 'drawn out' lyrics. I don't have much trouble with "Sunny Side...." having played in on Banjo for centuries,but i'm having a tough ole' time of it with "Carolina In The Pines" right now.
The lyrics are drawn out but not long enough to get real 'fill ins' ie. " She came to meeeeeeee / said she knew meeeeeeee..." etc. Sort of 'in between' & quite tricky for somebody of my 'relative' inexperience. I think i'll go for a simple tremolo while i work on it,
Ivan