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Thread: Sound post...why not in a mando?

  1. #1
    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Sound post...why not in a mando?

    So, a fiddle has a sound post wedged in between the front and back of the instrument to alter/improve/tweak the sound. Why not put one in a mandolin?
    Any builders tried this?
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Ever try to flatpick a violin?

    Search the forum; we've been over this many times...

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    Registered User Londy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario Proulx View Post
    Ever try to flatpick a violin?

    Search the forum; we've been over this many times...
    Wonder what that would sound like? Heck, Jimmy Page bowed a guitar!....
    Amateurs practice until they can play it right.
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    Americanadian Andrew B. Carlson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    You could radius your mandos fretboard like a violin. Or make a fretless mandolin.
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    This comes up every now and then. This search has three or four discussions that should explain why mandolins don't have sound posts. The applicable subject lines should jump out at you.

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    Registered User Kerry Krishna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Now and then? This is second time in two weeks. Newer folks cant be expected to really use the Search button though, so it's a all right with me...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    And violinists do on occasion pluck strings...

    I'll tell you what, in a case of overkill, I have 4 posts between the top and back of a mandolin I'm restoring. I've done it to take the dishing out of the top. I'll let you know how it sounds when the restoration is done.

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    Registered User Greg Mirken's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    I put a soundpost in a mandolin that was beginning to cave in. The fact that it killed the resonance of the thing was perfect, because the customer played in a Pogues-type Irish rock band, and he could now crank his pickup way up without getting feedback.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    I put a sound post in a Far Eastern mandolin with a collapsing top and it didn't alter the sound one bit.

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    Registered User Rob Grant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    I put a fence post through a mandolin banjo once and it quickly relieved the pain I was experiencing... does that count?<G>
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Just to make sure the OP does not feel he's being ridiculed, the explanation:

    Fiddles have the problem, that the bow forces the strings to oscillate horizontally only. But to effectively transfer the vibration from the bridge to the top, you want the bridge to vibrate vertically. That's why fiddles have the post under one corner of the bridge: it works like a hinge the bridge can swing around and thus convert the horizontal into a vertical oscillation.

    Picked instruments let the strings oscillate in every direction after the pick stroke, so enough vertical oscillation to drive the top is provided without further measures.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    the explanation:
    That is great. I never heard it explained so clearly. Like a hinge. Wow. It makes perfect sense now.
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    man about town Markus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    I agree, Jeff. Bertram may have surpassed his usual amazing way with words.

    4 sentences and the concept it clear. I'm positive my wife will never accuse me of that.

    Mike's linked threads I found quite informative too, the earliest one has some great posts by Dave Cohen if you don't mind abstract. Otherwise, read Bertram's distillation and get on with playing.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus View Post
    read Bertram's distillation
    I'd really like to be a distiller...
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Thanks Bertram. Good question and great answer. I lurk here everyday but had missed the previous discussions.
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    Mediocre but OK with that Paul Busman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Thanks Bertram-- I've been ridiculed before, and have developed thick skin, but I really appreciate your courtesy and excellent explanation. I would never have thought of that.
    As far as flaming goes, the folks here are pretty light hearted about it, so I don't mind. I may indulge myself, when the opportunity presents.
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Yup - great answer Bertram!
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Another difference is that the bow provides a continuous source of energy to the string, whereas a pick supplies a one time source of energy. The soundpost has a very rapid dampnig effect on the string when that energy is removed. That is whay a plucked violin string makes a 'dunk dunk' type of sound. Not what you want in a mandolin.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    'Vertical' oscillations eh !.The strings should be struck from the top for max.effect. Maybe somebody was experimenting with Bill Monroe's Loar & a fire poker & overdid it a bit ?.
    Seriously Bertram - your explanation was very good indeed,
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    'Vertical' oscillations eh !.The strings should be struck from the top for max.effect.
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Just to make sure the OP does not feel he's being ridiculed, the explanation:

    Fiddles have the problem, that the bow forces the strings to oscillate horizontally only. But to effectively transfer the vibration from the bridge to the top, you want the bridge to vibrate vertically. That's why fiddles have the post under one corner of the bridge: it works like a hinge the bridge can swing around and thus convert the horizontal into a vertical oscillation.

    Picked instruments let the strings oscillate in every direction after the pick stroke, so enough vertical oscillation to drive the top is provided without further measures.
    If violin strings only vibrated in a horizontal plane, there would be no need for relief in the fingerboard.

    I just bowed the C string of one of my cellos and it oscillates both vertically and horizontally. I think that if you could slow it down it is like one of those spirograph things I had when I was a kid. I think if you put an imaginary compass at the center of the string, the string would go NE, SE, N, S, NW, SW and so on.

    It is true that the bridge moves vertically, and rocks back and forth over the soundpost and the bass bar.

    Sam Zygmuntowicz recently did a study on a Strad violin where 300 some measuring lasers were trained on every square centimeter of the violin top as the strings were being excited. He then slowed down the video and made a CD of it where you can change the frequency of the pitch and and slow down the oscillation so you can watch how it vibrates. It looks like a jello mold that someone slapped. The project is called the Strad 3D project.

    I make no claim to understand exactly how a violin works. Is a very complex system. If it were a simple thing to make a fine instrument none of us would be in business.

    I do know that precisely where the soundpost is in relation to the bridge, the quality of the fit between the soundpost to the top and back, and the amount of tension the post was fitted with all make a tremendous difference to the sound of the violin.

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    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    The circular movement of bowed strings at a distance from the bridge is not relevant to the motion that is transmitted into the top. The motion is maximally constrained into the horizontal plane exactly when we want the most power, leaning into the string hard. So the pivoting motion is essential. Easy to test for those unafraid to set their soundposts--without one there is little power when bowed, but it sounds like a guitar when plucked.

    Another thing: the short decay time of plucked violin strings is mostly due to the design of the strings, which have intentional damping, as well as the style of plucking. We know bass and cello players can get nice sustain, and I do pretty well on viola, by using more finger pressure, or even the left hand finger's nail when I need sustain.

    Another design feature of violin family is that they have only one tone bar, under the bass foot, to distribute motion across a large area of top. When Jimmy Page bowed a guitar, the signal was feeble until he stopped and let it ring, and the strings reverted to more vertical movement. This happens because it is easier for the neck to flex up and down as opposed to sideways. There are complex motions happening, but the horizontal is the important one for bowing and vertical the important one for picking. Even when the pick motion is horizontal, the release is an upward jump. (The opposite happens sometimes with fingerpicking, and with violin pizzicato, with the release going downward.)
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    Luthier&Pickup maker ret. Soundfarmer Pete's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Two words: Hammered Dulcimer
    Ah...but then there`s the "Sawed Dulcimer" which has its origins in Trunch (Norfolk, UK)
    CheeryBye

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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    I wasn't going to say anything. People were enjoying Bertrams's explanation, and it seems that I do enough contradicting on this forum anyway. But, since the wheels have already been set in motion,....


    From Curtin and Rossing: "The bass bar and soundpost introduce an important structural asymmetry into the violin's otherwise symmetrical design. Without this, the rocking motion of the bridge would tend to induce equal but opposite motions in the areas of the top around each bridge foot. The result would be an acoustical "short circuiting" that would reduce low-frequency radiation."

    What we do see is that the soundpost fixes a node in the C2 (B1-) mode. The node passes through the region of the soundpost. Additionally, both the soundpost and the bass bar have the effect of raising the frequencies of the A0 and C2 modes. Saldner observed those frequency changes, and Bissinger observed the changes in the C2 mode shape. Both observed the lowering of low-frequency radiation efficiency upon removal of the soundpost.

    From the above, you can see that bowed strings do exert forces on the bridge and top plate, but without the alteration of mode frequency and shape, the forces aren't as effectively transformed into sound radiation.

    Regarding the "300 some lasers", are you sure about that? We do holographic interferometry with just one laser (with a beam spreader, of course). Regarding Sam Zygmuntowics' obsesrvations: The first holographic interferometry done on violins occured around 1970 at the Swedish Royal Institute ("KTH"). Eric Jannson and others were involved. Before that, modal analysis was done with things like accelerometers (albeit with much more labor). I don't want to take anything away from Zygmuntowics, but there are by now quite a number of scientists who deserve some credit that too often seems to go to Sam Z. Sam Z., like Joe Curtin, is a luthier who works with scientists.

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    Default Re: Sound post...why not in a mando?

    300 may not be an accurate number, but it is what I remember from Joe and Sam's lecture a couple of years ago. The point is to measure very precisely how each area of the top (and back) move when excited and then slow that down to a level where we can learn something about how the system works.

    I agree that credit also needs to go to the scientists who provide the expertise in their fields that expands the study of instruments.

    Michael

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