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Thread: How to jam

  1. #1

    Default How to jam

    I've been playing the mandolin for about a year now, just learning a few songs here and there without ever understanding the theory behind what I'm playing. I've recently been learning the music theory such with chromatic and pentatonic scales, but I have no idea how to bring it to life so to speak and put my fingers to the mandolin and play it. My goal is to be able to listen to a fellow bluegrass player and play along by improvising, but I have no idea where to start. Does anyone have any advice or videos they are willing to share?

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  3. #2
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    For me, focusing on the song's chord progression is what works. Most people can tell you what key they are playing a song in. In most folk, bluegrass, CW, blues and rock you are going to use the I, IV, V, ii, vi and maybe II chords in the song. If you don't know what the Roman numerals mean look up "Nashville numbering system." The uppercase numbers denote the major chords and lowercase are minor chords for the key you are playing in. Jamming along in the correct chord progression and correct rhythm is the first fundamental step. Rhythm is the most important thing to develop when playing with others. With that under your belt learn the arpeggios for each chord, and use them for your jumping off point for licks and leads.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    The best first step, I think, is to learn the tunes - the chords as mentioned, and the melody too. To my ear, the improvisations that are informed by the melody itself are generally better than those that are using some "formula" applied in the key of the song.

    All the stuff you are learning is important, no question, but learning the tune you want to play with or on is vital. The tune is what you are going to tastefully depart from when you take a break.
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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    Yeah, the most important thing of all is to be able to hear the chord progression and recognize each chord in relation to the root. Take all your favorite tunes and listen to them, alongside the tab or chord chart for them, and learn to hear what a V chord sounds like, or a IV, or a ii, or a vi. Until you have this in your head, you won't be able to go very far with improvising, especially when you get the nod at a jam for a tune you've never played before.

    And then, of course, you have to know how to play the chords and scales that go along with the chord progression, depending on what key you're playing in. Learn to play the chords for a tune in its original key, then start playing it in a different key. If you do this with enough tunes, it will become second nature and start to reinforce the "hearing" of the music instead of just the memorization of it.

    Improvising is important in bluegrass jams, but most people try to put the cart before the horse. Improvisation is the culmination of a lot of other things. And going off into left field with an improvised break should only be attempted if you're thoroughly familiar with the chord progression and the original melody. When you're new to jamming, don't be afraid to just play the melody in its original format, even if it's just from having memorized the tablature. Your improv skills will come over time, as your familiarity grows.

    I would recommend The Mandolin Picker's Guide to Bluegrass Improvisation. It's a Mel Bay book which will really get you started on scales and chords and building a bluegrassy sound. It's not going to make you play like Skaggs or anything, but it's got a lot of good examples and exercises and theory. It may be just what you're looking for.

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    Default Re: How to jam

    Start with the chords , Mandobart gives a working explanation of what is usually found in a song insofar as what chords you will be finding... listen to the melody and understand how it is following the chords. Frame any improvisation with the arpeggios and or pentatonic scales related to those chords and when they change. Add flatted seventh scale tones to the mix. Add too that techniques , hammering onto pulling off of and sliding into tones. Work on right hand technique at the same time with cross picking and tremolo. Use double stops when you are approaching a chord change. Practice all this "stuff" but play it to a radio station streaming site or recording. Listen to what you are doing and your ear will let you know what is working and what isn't. This takes time ... keep working on it and it will come to you. R/
    I love hanging out with mandolin nerds . . . . . Thanks peeps ...

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    Registered User Paul Cowham's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    Great advice here, but at some point you will need to bite the bullet. If you can, then find a beginners jam to go along to and go. You won't learn to jam overnight but if you start jamming with people regularly then it will slowly start to become natural. Initially you should probably play quietly and just experiment with what sounds good and gradually progress from there. Most regular jams play pretty much the same stuff week on week and that means you can slowly learn their repertoire. This will also provide a focus for learning the stuff that good people were discussing above.

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    Default Re: How to jam

    For me the theory didn't really make sense until I knew enough to pay a simple or straight melody fairly easy. I guess that even that is dependent on theory. So many people start thinking improvision is a string on notes that will run between the chords and if you learn that your first break will sound good, then the second third and tenth sound just the same. Your break needs to be based on the melody.

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    Default Re: How to jam

    For me the theory didn't really make sense until I knew enough to pay a simple or straight melody fairly easy.
    I think that this is an important point that typically gets glossed over. So often, we get excited about finally grasping various aspects of theory, so we tell beginners "Study theory. Learn theory. It's so much easier to see on the mandolin." But for me, theory has always been a post mortem tool, something used to analyze licks or progressions that I've already discovered. Something to use when I ask "What did I do there that sounded so cool? How can I apply that to another key/situation?" I can't think of a single thing that I've ever figured out with theory. It's greatest use (IMO) is as a language for talking about music, with other musicians.
    Mitch Russell

  13. #9

    Default Re: How to jam

    When playing along, should I be playing down strokes on the beat? I've been messing with the arpeggios and scales, but I can't seem so stay in sync.

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    Default Re: How to jam

    In general you play down stroke on the downbeat, upstroke on the upbeat. If you count the beats "one and two and three and four" then you would be playing down on 1, 2, 3 and 4 and up on the "ands". It's not just straight "up down" since you might not play every note and you need to play the beat so for example "Whiskey Before Breakfast" (at least the version I play) would go "dudud d dudududud dud etc... and you still move your hand as if you were playing on the ups or downs where there's no note but don't hit the string. (Note that some people fill in notes in different places, Mike Marshall suggests learning some tunes as "straight eighth note" versions where you pick on every 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 to get the hang of always moving back and forth). Jigs are done a bit differently but it's still down on the downbeat.

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    Registered User John Flynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    I try to base everything on the melody. That's where I would start. To me, you might be able to accompany a tune on rhythm without knowing the melody, but you aren't really playing the tune without knowing the melody. Once you have that, the mandolin is great for facilitating improvising on the melody with double stops, tremolos, hammer-ons, rapid downstrokes, harmonies, etc. After a while, you don't even think about them, they just "happen." But the melody should always be heard in there somewhere. I save pentatonics and arpeggios (especially cross-picked) for intros, fills and turnarounds.

  16. #12
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    I started playing mandolin in 2008. I was classically trained on violin and played regularly until 1981. I was basically musically dormant for the next 20 years, when I started picking guitar again. I began attending regular song circles with my local bluegrass/traditional music club when I took up mandolin.

    Now I'm able to play with anyone, most any genre, often on songs I've never heard before. Yes I can say without boasting that I can and do jam. I got to this point by playing with others in a supportive group on a regular basis. If another player starts an unfamiliar tune, first I listen. Once I know what key its in and what the progression is (a pretty quick process once you actively practice this for a while) I focus on the melody. Remember most of these tunes follow a predictable melodic pattern as well as chord progression. Don't feel that you have to master or even know the melody before you can jam. However, don't break out a lead that has no resemblance to the melody. Providing a solid steady backup rhythm is a worthy contribution to any jam.

  17. #13

    Default Re: How to jam

    Quote Originally Posted by onassis View Post
    ......theory has always been a post mortem tool, something used to analyze licks or progressions that I've already discovered. ........It's greatest use (IMO) is as a language for talking about music, with other musicians.
    Exactly. Theory isnt creative, it is descriptive.

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    ♪☮♫ Roll away the dew ♪☮♫ Dan Krhla's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    Not just for guitar :

    Derek Trucks’ 10 Commandments of Jam

    http://alanpaul.net/2015/04/derek-tr...dments-of-jam/
    do good things

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    Default Re: How to jam

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandobart View Post
    Now I'm able to play with anyone, most any genre, often on songs I've never heard before. Yes I can say without boasting that I can and do jam. I got to this point by playing with others in a supportive group on a regular basis.
    There it is.

    However, don't break out a lead that has no resemblance to the melody. Providing a solid steady backup rhythm is a worthy contribution to any jam.
    There too.
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    Troy Shellhamer 9lbShellhamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to jam

    Its taken me about two years to really figure out how to "improvise" a solid break. I had known through similar cafe questions that in bluegrass I needed to stay firmly rooted in the melody, but that didn't translate well to me in terms of building a break that didn't sound plinky, like some childs version of the song I was taking a break on. In the meantime, I learned some licks and double stops, and now I've come back to the melody.

    To begin the break I go into a kickoff, (Basically a lick with my index on the root and middle on the 5th. In the key of G, this would translate to 7-5-x-x, OR X-X-3-2.) From this shape you have the scale in front of you to firmly go back to melody. There are also a lot of chop shape licks you can add in if there is a bar with dead air or a note that lingers for a long time... You can also supplement the melody by learning double stops in all the keys. It's all about the melody though, from there you embellish.

    NFI, but I'd highly recommend the Flinner BG mandolin 101/102 courses. He's a great teacher and I couldn't be happier with the progress I've seen in a year. I was lucky enough to even begin playing in a band here locally, with the foundations I've learned through those courses I can build some tasty breaks to the songs I'm doing with the band, even if I haven't heard them before.

    Good luck!

    I suppose my best advice would be to learn scales in the FFCP major shapes...like 0,2,4,5 0,2,4,5, and then learn double stops, G,C,D, and A,D,E, and you can play double stop while taking your breaks. This is a great place to start.
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    Default Re: How to jam

    Noone said to play only melody notes, just to build from the melody not just notes in the scales. Listen to BG mandolin players from Mr. Monroe on down with few exceptions you can "hear" the melody not note for note but it's there.

  24. #18

    Default Re: How to jam

    for me, the jam thing was a mental issue.

    jamming, is, NOT a rehearsed performance, yet there are times we would like our playing to sound perfectly tailored and well composed. This takes a lot or time and practice.

    there is an underlying concern of fitting in , being competent, and, being able to 'drive the bus' when its your turn. ie playing with command and authority-if only mentally.


    know the tune, really helps ( I am constantly playing songs at jams I have never heard)
    and, when you're done learning the tune, be sure you also know the changes, as mentioned-easy to learn one well and not really know the other-if I know the changes, im 90% home-there likely will be few 'wrong notes', even if I decide to play around and see if old joe clark over lays salt creek, etc.

    for me, being a perfectionist at times,
    the really big step is to let go-to leave my ego behind

    when I am able to do this, I am able better to focus on listening and planning and changing course on the fly, much more easily. and laughing off blunders.

    "a man who never makes a mistake has never tried to do anything"

    listen, and contrary to mr trucks, experiment on the fly-this is , imho, the first step to later crafting solos.

    one thing too, I find less is more. a one note solo well done can fit better at times than a flurry of notes
    melodic solos , versus speed demonstrations, seem to reflect the 'tell a story' thing a bit more.

    I never seem to tell a story, other than, "then what happened?" LOL

    let er rip, let it go, and simply, be in the moment and smile and absorb. if you can, attend regularly for starters. it eases discomfort and makes for new friends.

  25. #19

    Default Re: How to jam

    From another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by JWalterWeatherman View Post
    So I have been playing mandolin for about 3.5 years and this has been my primary objective. I spent countless hours taking lessons, reading, listening, playing, etc. and this is the information that I have absorbed distilled down as much as I possibly can:

    1. Any lead break is based on the basic melody of a song. So as a starting point you want to play "straight ahead and strive for tone". If you are at a jam and you play the straight up melody tastefully and precisely people will know you are atleast decent. That is miles better than shooting off a bunch of random notes or playing an uncoordinated scale break. In most situations where you here the pros play some crazy lead it is someway tied to the original melody. You may have to deconstruct why slowly and methodically, but it is typically there unless they are just faking a melody, which they are 100% capable as well. That crazy stuff Thile does is related to the melody, although he may shoot for the most abstract, technically challenging interpretation possible that is beyond my brain to comprehend.

    2. The next step once you know it pat is changing phrases that aren't essential to recognizing the tune. Mike Marshall says there are target notes- notes that make the song really what it is, maybe related to a chord change, or otherwise important to make a song what it is. These are not all of the notes in a song. So when you are traveling between these notes you can pick different ways of getting there or you can add other ornamentation different from the straight melody. For Example: The bolded letters may be target notes in 9 Lb Hammer.

    This 9 pound Hammer is a little too Heavy For my Size, buddy for my Size

    All that other space can vary and you can go as far afield as you want and it will usually sound decent as long as you get to the target notes in time with the song. Of course the pros will leave out a bunch of target notes and come in and out as they please and if you have mastery of the tune and time you can do that. Which leads me to filling the space

    3. When you fill this space that is where your technical and theoretical knowledge will come into play. That is also where you can borrow from other styles. You can play Monroe style with multiple downstrokes and some blue notes or you can play so real fast 1/16 notes like Thile (I wish), or you can play some double stops, tremolo, etc. This is where vocabulary comes into play. I took a lesson from Andy Statman and he said you need to speak the language. That means playing exact passages like the masters. Or atleast listening enough to understand some of the concepts that they are using and incorporating them into your own music. This may mean going back and listening to and even better transcribing original sources. That is how you truly master bluegrass- learning what your options are and implementing them with your own creative spin.

    4. As you go through these processes you will start to develop your own style based on what you prefer and what you gravitate too. Grisman has his own style but it comes from many different influences and he started by trying to play like Bill Monroe. There are many people who have a similar story that are crazy pros. So when your hear some crazy lightening fast or super off melody sounding lead it is not that it is some garbled something or other, it is just the best of the best doing what they do and that level of mastery can be very confusing.

    That's what I have learned so far... Sorry for the long post, but it felt like good to get all of that info down on paper. By the way I am still working on step 1.


  26. #20

    Default Re: How to jam

    I came from guitar where we were forever jamming so it felt natural to do so quite early on with the mandolin. My approach has always been to be very familiar with the scale shapes, identify the key and then listen listen listen to what's being played as you improvise. Can't say I've bothered much knowing the chords, just let your ears tell you what's right.

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