How to buy from the Classifieds

**Greenmando** · Mar-05-2011, 12:44am

I have always tried to be as descriptive as I can. I found most people responding have not read the ad that well and ask questions already addressed.

I had a buyer last year try and turn the purchase around into something I could not control. The buyer wanted me to sit on the check and not cash it till he gave me the ok. I simply told him that was fine, after he gave me the ok I would cash the check then ship the mando.

A important hint when selling and accepting paypal. Use the same email address you use on paypal to communicate with the sale. I had used a address I have made my primary, the paypal is under a old address. It can make a buyer nervous.

**dcoventry** · Mar-05-2011, 1:03am

The seller should describe the instrument as well as possible, yes. The buyer should ask for current pictures before buying, yes, to compare to the received instrument. And hopefully the use of Paypal keeps both buyer and seller protected. I REALLY WONDER how well Paypal would do the job of protecting a buyer from a problem with a seller, and just how exactly they would enforce such a thing.

**Brent Hutto** · Mar-05-2011, 1:12am

If I had a problem with something I purchased, I would directly contact my credit card company first. If they instructed me to do something involving PayPal I'd simply follow the credit-card companies procedures. But I'd treat it the same as any other problem with something purchased using that card, PayPal or not.

**dcoventry** · Mar-05-2011, 1:57am

Brent,

Excellent advice and obvious to boot. Sometimes you are too close to a problem to really think objectively. That's when you ask for advice.

Thanks and have a great weekend.

Dave

**Brent Hutto** · Mar-05-2011, 2:20am

Hey, I'm sitting up half the night and listening to good music on headphones. The weekend is off to a good start already!

Good luck, Dave.

**Jeff A** · Mar-05-2011, 9:28am

Something not mentioned in this thread is Skype. Real time hearing and seeing of the instrument would be extremely useful in making a decision prior to shipping. I have never sold on the cafe although I will be soon. I have 5 or 6 mandos and guitars that I should sell. For me, Skype will be part of this process.

**Brent Hutto** · Mar-05-2011, 9:33am

Jeff,

On a forum where so many topics have been hashed and rehashed, it's fantastic when someone comes up with a genuinely new (to me at least) idea that's brilliant. And your Skype suggestion is brilliant. Good one!

**dcoventry** · Mar-05-2011, 9:40am

MY GOD...it's a brilliant idea.

And I would like to restate that out classifieds here at MC is a fantastic resource. However, these are often high dollar items we are dealing with and so constant vigilence is a good idea. No not paranoia to suck the joy out of our hobby, but enough diligence to reduce the worry about scams or possible scamola.

dave

**swampstomper** · Mar-05-2011, 12:55pm

Skype -- what a great idea! I'll show you the mando and play it some (not that Skype sound quality is all that good), and you can.... show... me... the.... money!

**Eddie Sheehy** · Mar-05-2011, 5:48pm

Just some added notes about Paypal.

1. I recently bought a mandolin on the Cafe and used Paypal, per the Seller's request. The Seller emailed me that Paypal would not release the money for a while and asked me to reverse the transaction and send him a check. This saved him the Paypal fees, and I had to wait until my check cleared his bank - would you believe two weeks from when I mailed it. So for his savings I "gave up" my Paypal protection and endured a long wait. It was a great mandolin, so I'm annoyed but not disappointed.

2. A second seller made me wait until Paypal released the funds to him before he shipped.

3. Recently I got a partial refund from a seller. I hadn't even realized that Paypal had put a HOLD on it until I received an email from them a week later that it had been "RELEASED".

Paypal might be good for the Buyer, but it it a royal pain for the Seller.

**Brent Hutto** · Mar-05-2011, 7:36pm

Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy

Paypal might be good for the Buyer, but it it a royal pain for the Seller.

Yes, it can be.

It's a trade-off between putting up with possible PayPal hassles vs. foreclosing on the possibility of a sale to someone who won't send money any other way.

**dcoventry** · Mar-05-2011, 7:57pm

Paybal acts as an objective third party arbiteur and money swap site. It may slightly favor the buyer, but with good reason quite often. A not so hypothetical example, if I may:

You buy an instrument, find it not to your liking, and return it. The seller claims the instrument has returned damged and it is YOUR FAULT. You think it is not your fault. OK, now the seller has your money AND the instrument and is asking for money to cover the damage

. The buyer can lodge a disputed transaction with Paypal that gives some leverage to the buyer for getting some or all of the funds returned. Also, it helps to require both parties to act reasonably and present their cases and claims.

It is always important to document the condition of teh instrument BEFORE it gets to you, WHEN it gets to you, and as it LEAVES you. A hassle? Well, less than the alternative, I found.

I started this thread because I recently had such an issue, and found the Paypal system to be useful, but it can be abused, too, like any other. We all have to remember to act honestly and respectfully towards each other, but sometimes there are less than honorable folks out there, and some of them even have the audacity to play mandolin!

A pox upon them, say I.

**jasona** · Mar-05-2011, 8:17pm

Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy

Paypal might be good for the Buyer, but it it a royal pain for the Seller.

You using echeques? Those can take a while to clear. Use a credit card or link your PayPal to a savings/chequing account and its a nearly instantaneous transfer.

**Eddie Sheehy** · Mar-06-2011, 1:07pm

Originally Posted by jasona

You using echeques? Those can take a while to clear. Use a credit card or link your PayPal to a savings/checking account and its a nearly instantaneous transfer.

No echeques. The transfer might be instantaneous to your paypal account but you won't get the money from Paypal into your bank account for several days. Not a problem for me, but like I said, some sellers didn't want to wait...

**barrangatan** · Mar-06-2011, 1:25pm

Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy

No echeques. The transfer might be instantaneous to your paypal account but you won't get the money from Paypal into your bank account for several days.

That's interesting Eddie. The only time I had money being held up by Paypal is when I sold instruments through eBay. But at the same time, the 'hold' policy may be related to the dollar amount as well for non-eBay transactions. Whatever the case though - the money is technically there available to the seller, and if the instrument is shipped with tracking information, which they usually are, the seller can call up Paypal the day the instrument is delivered and request the money to be released. Worked for me every time.

**jasona** · Mar-06-2011, 1:59pm

If the money is in their PayPal account the transaction is completed from your perspective. How long it takes for the transfer from PayPal to their bank isn't your worry IMO.

Personally, I just let the PayPal balance build until I spend it on something :D

**Nonprophet** · Mar-06-2011, 2:58pm

Originally Posted by jasona

If the money is in their PayPal account the transaction is completed from your perspective. How long it takes for the transfer from PayPal to their bank isn't your worry IMO.

Personally, I just let the PayPal balance build until I spend it on something :D

The only problem with this is that you really don't "have" the money until it's in your bank account that Paypal can't withdraw from.

In a worst-case scenario (and trust me--it happens!) You're selling an item. Buyer makes offer, you accept, buyer pays via Paypal. You ship item. Buyer gets item, contacts Paypal and says you shipped him an empty box. Paypal freezes the money until the dispute is resolved. Can't prove you put the item in the box? YOU LOOSE! Paypal takes the money back and there's NOTHING you can do about it......

It's not happened to me, but it has happened to not one but two friends of mine. One of them transferred the money from Paypal to his checking account, but Paypal took the money right out of his account because it was linked to PP and their TOU states that they can do this.

Yes, it doesn't happen very often, and, it can be largely avoided if the buyer is a known entity, but NEVER think that Paypal is your friend--they are not.......

NP

**dcoventry** · Mar-06-2011, 3:06pm

NP,

Huh, that's scary for a seller. PP is a double edged sword for sure, and it cuts both ways. This is why documentation at the times of shipping and receipt is so vitally important.

In this "empty box" case, UPS and FedEx weight th eboxes, and if the shipped itemis of significant weight, you could argue from that point, I suppose. Crap. that's a pain.

Dave

**Brent Hutto** · Mar-06-2011, 3:15pm

Well dealing for significant sums of money, long-distance, with people you will never meet cuts both ways. It's prudent to document, take pictures and so forth but someone determined to rip you off may well find a way to do it no matter what. There's some scam possible to work around any given precaution. The trick to find a balance between what reasonable and prudent steps you can take vs. trying to reduce the risk to absolutely zero (which isn't really possiblem is it).

For my part, I love the convenience of buying and selling small and not-so-small stuff through forum classifieds and so forth. But when you get into the thousands of dollars I would only do business with an established professional dealer, whether buying or selling.

**Mandobar** · Mar-08-2011, 8:29am

the problem is that if you continually "buy" and return folks are rather hesitant to ship you their "for sale" instrument. it is after all "for sale" and when you sell something you either need to money or are after something else. if there is a good chance you are going to return the instrument the seller is just spinning his wheels then. shipping and approval period and then the shipping back can tie an instrument up for several weeks dependent on the shipping method and the location of the two parties.

i've been buying and selling instruments for going on 25 years and it is a small community. word gets round who is a serious buyer and who is not. that's just reality. i gave up selling my own instruments long ago, although i did sell to someone who i knew recently. and as a banker and financial manager for over 30 years i'd have to say that a bank check is all that i would take unless i really knew the buyer. it is against the law to stop payment on a bank check and in order to do that you would have to sign a legal document stating that the check was lost or stolen. this is the only legal way to stop payment on this form of payment. the bank guarantees the funds. if you sign this document falsely they will prosecute. believe me, with prejudice.

paypal, well, it is exasperating.

**dcoventry** · Mar-08-2011, 9:15am

I agree that "churning" through mandos, buying and returning continually, is probably not a good idea, but at some level you have to try out an instrument to see if you like it and it feels and plays correctly for you. Also, the buy and return process can get damned expensive if you live on one coast, buy from the other and ship insured, always a good idea. It could be $80-$100 per transaction.

It's tough that in lots of local communites, mine in central California for example, there is only a small selection of instruments to play that are for sale. In my case, Sylvan Music is an hour away, Gryphon about 2 hours, and for Carmel Music I would have to take a loan out on my house.

So, many people are left with the online community as a larger source to draw from. This being the case, non person-to-person transactions can get complicated, and this thread is an attempt to set guidelines for everyone to use to ease the complications.

**dcoventry** · May-16-2012, 9:49pm

Hey guys, Dave here.

I believe there was recently a post in the MC classifieds that was "out of bounds" having to do with a return policy issue. I know nothing of the circumstance, really, and recognized the post as being close to the edge in terms of the "rules of engagement". Did the poster know of his infraction? Was he warned? Was it true? ONLY THE SHADOW KNOWS!

But really, this place is phenomenal, let's keep it that way, and let's also be forgiving, patient and willing to gently correct and teach those who are new, benignly ignorant, or overly sensitive.

Love and tolerance should be our code.....or at least LIKE and tolerance. You get my point. This a great board. We should not fear honesty and forthrightness. Nor should we tolerate petty attitudes.

I hope all is well going forward and any agreeved parties are made whole and wholesome as is appropriate.

**Andrew B. Carlson** · May-16-2012, 10:58pm

I thought I was the only one who caught that before it was taken down. Been waiting for a comment.

**dcoventry** · May-16-2012, 11:12pm

Originally Posted by Andrew B. Carlson

I thought I was the only one who caught that before it was taken down. Been waiting for a comment.

It was one of those, "he knows not what does" moments. Malicious? Nah. Ignint? Prolly. Guilty? Nah.

**Scott Tichenor** · May-17-2012, 6:25am

Ah, I can see more fallout from an inappropriate ad placed on the Classifieds. We have a zero tolerance policy for this kind of behavior and it's not going to be discussed further. Two sides to every story and one of them didn't get told in this case. You all agree to guidelines when you join the forum and use the Classifieds. To those that choose to use tools of communication as a weapon to bully, publicly harass and terrorize fellow members--even those with perfect selling histories-- I will personally deal harshly with you. There is no place in this community for this kind of unacceptable behavior. Both parties here have made incredibly poor decisions in this "situation" and it's now up to them to see if they can behave like adults and indicate they can exist here without engaging in this kind of inappropriate behavior. Unfortunately, I don't have much hope for that.