Frets on fiddles.....why not?

[Duane Graves]

To my knowledge I have never had a fiddle in my hands, but, I remember the first time someone told me that fiddles have "no" frets. I thought, this person doesn't know what they're talking about all these stringed instruments have frets. So, to court the thread in play right now about being able to play the mandolin and therefore it should be easier to learn to play the fiddle...don't you think that if a fiddle had frets and I play the mandolin but not the fiddle and they are tuned the same then the percentage increases dramatically that I could be playing the "fretted" fiddle rather quickly? In the discussion can we answer the question 'why don't fiddles have frets?' --dgg

[Rob Giuffrida]

I'd also like to know! I'm interested to see people's reasonings!

[Brent Hutto]

It wouldn't sound like a fiddle if it had frets. The sound of a string stopped by flesh and ebony is quite different than the sound of a string stopped by a steel fret. In particular, when notes are stopped or unstopped while the bow is being played it would sound very wrong and very harsh to have the string arriving and departing from a fixed piece of metal. When you do an upward slur on a fiddle that's nothing at all like a hammer-on with a fretted instrument because the bow is continuing to supply continuous energy to the string.

There's also a whole world of microintonation utilized by good fiddlers that would cease to be available with frets. At any given instant a fiddler has total freedom to play a pitch that is microscopically different than an "in tune" note. In fact, in some styles of fiddling they are in effect using scales/modes that are microtonal.

One other thing. If you've never played a fiddle you won't realize how tiny, light and delicate a fiddle's neck and fingerboard is built. Much more dainty seeming than a fretboard, which it can be because you don't need room for the frets (and because of the different hand position).

[F-2 Dave]

I believe it was a clever ploy by forward thinking violin builders beginning in the 1600's to keep banjo players from messing with fiddles. I could be wrong.

[Gary Watkins]

Seems like a good question. I found this: http://www.frettedfiddle.com/#Instructions

[MikeEdgerton]

Here is one of many threads on the subject. Here's a fretted violin on eBay right now. There are modern makers that sell them as well. For anyone looking to try it out, here are detachable frets for the violin.

[catmandu2]

Without the fret, the finger has more control over the shape, contour and expressiveness of the note. The frets facilitate sustain--which is unneeded in a violin as it is played with a bow. If it is played pizzicato--such as a mandolin--it is not viable for a sound that requires more sustain.

There are keyed fiddles (nyckelharpa) and fretted strings (viols of various shapes, sizes and configurations) of all sorts..

Others will be able to give you historical info on acoustics, construction and tradition. From a player's perspective, I can tell you that the obvious--expressiveness--must be at least one factor. When playing an instrument with such a short scale (such as a mandolin), I've always felt like frets just take up space. Of course, frets come in handy for polyphony..

[Steve Ostrander]

Neither does viola, cello, or bass fiddle. And fretless electric bass.

[allenhopkins]

I believe it was a clever ploy by forward thinking violin builders beginning in the 1600's to keep banjo players from messing with fiddles. I could be wrong.

Well, banjos didn't have frets until post-Civil War; however, they also had gut strings, lacked tone rings and resonators, and weren't as percussive-slash-deafening as they became in the 20th century. Just consider what cacophony a fretless Mastertone might produce...!

[mandroid]

it was a slow week at local instrument repair shop, so 1 got fretted..

But, the bowing techniques is another big part of the tone, and you just have to learn that.

[Jim Garber]

Here's a fretted violin on eBay right now.

Actually, technically speaking, that is a bowed zither, despite what the seller says. Those holes on the back of the fiddle body had sharp nails in them to sit on a sounding board or table. This was never meant to be held under your chin like a violin.

[Martin Stevens]

It's my understanding that picked instruments have frets not because it keeps you in tune (although that helps) but because the sustain of a note when it's just string/fret is better than string/ebony/finger. You ever notice that notes are more dead if you put your finger directly on the fret? The frets are what make it sound clean.

The violin doesn't have any problem with sustain because of the bow and the finger/ebony gives better tone in that instance.

[Charlieshafer]

For further fun and confusion, investigate the origins of tuning in equal temperament, and how many feel it ruined music, especially if you're a Baroque fan (i.e. Bach and that period). The previous tunings (not the A=440 thing, the distance between individual notes is what we're talking about here) had many difference in terms of cents (beats) between notes. This site has always been my favorite to refer people to. Click the various links on top to get different explanations for the whole thing. It'll take a good evening of reading to understand what's going on, but essentially you get to the point where you realize frets are pretty limiting beasts from many standpoints. They'd wreck a violin, just as they wrecked banjos (well, if you like the nylon-stringed open-back fretless clawhammer sound that Allen was talking about).

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually, technically speaking, that is a bowed zither, despite what the seller says. Those holes on the back of the fiddle body had sharp nails in them to sit on a sounding board or table. This was never meant to be held under your chin like a violin.

Alright, then check this site out.

[Charlieshafer]

Alright, then check this site out.

That's just wrong.

[Tim2723]

Yup, the fretted and bowed instruments are very old indeed. That 'zither' is part of the lute family as it has a neck and integral sound chamber. Not really a fiddle, but not a zither either. Compound vs. simple chordophones.

[Paul Kotapish]

David Hidalgo of Los Lobos plays a fretted fiddle--sounds pretty good in context. The family of viola de gamba instruments do have frets, as does the arpeggione. There are bowed instruments with frets from points east, as well.

[Duane Graves]

Seems like a good question. I found this: http://www.frettedfiddle.com/#Instructions

...sweet fiddle "with frets" no less, oh, oh.....folks, check the vid at bottom of the url provided in the quote above....thanks, Gary, good stuff....

[Willie Poole]

A friend of mine`s daughter started taking violin lessons in school and they started her out on a fiddle that had one of those removable fretted fingerboards, it helps them learn where to put their fingers so that they will be playing the notes on key...It does keep them from making the vibrato sound by wiggling their fingers back and forth....Anyway they are out there and just because some of you haven`t seen them doesn`t mean they don`t exist, there`s not much out there that someone on here hasn`t seen or played, this is a very knowledgable forum so we all need to take advantage of it....

Willie

[Elliot Luber]

I think that's a big mistake because frets don't teach you where to put your finger, you finger a fretted instrument behind the fret to trip the string at the fret, and you play fretless with you finger on the spot where the fret would be. Thus you're not learing the fingering correctly by playing fretted. Fretted fiddle or fretted violin are fine with me. I'm sure it lends itself to a particular expression, but learning violin isn't one of them.

[Jim]

I think that's a big mistake because frets don't teach you where to put your finger, you finger a fretted instrument behind the fret to trip the string at the fret, and you play fretless with you finger on the spot where the fret would be. Thus you're not learing the fingering correctly by playing fretted. Fretted fiddle or fretted violin are fine with me. I'm sure it lends itself to a particular expression, but learning violin isn't one of them.

I think it might help with ear training though.

[peterfret]

I play fretted violin and I'm happy that it exists. I played 10 years guitar and mandolin and I wanted to play other instrument. I tried violin but without heavy practicing it was bad. When I discovered fretted violin and I tried it I was sure I'm able to play it. It is not for classical music but for playing songs it is good. Short good video is on youtube.

[Chip Booth]

Alright, then check this site out.

Interesting that those fretted violins don't have dots at the 9th or 10th frets. I guess they just avoided that issue all together, perhaps so as not to confuse guitarists?

[Clyde Clevenger]

Seems I have no problem with intonation, a few hours of scales and play a few fiddle tunes I was okay with that, it's the damn bow that's the problem, it doesn't do what I want, ever, i"m sticking with the pick.

[Utility Picker]

I believe it was a clever ploy by forward thinking violin builders beginning in the 1600's to keep banjo players from messing with fiddles. I could be wrong.

I must've missed the memo.