Lack of improvement?

[StringPunk]

Hey everyone, forum newbie here!

I started playing mandolin last July. I went through a very brief and unsuccessful period of trying to learn guitar a few years ago, but apart from that no experience of playing an instrument. I'm enjoying the mando much more than guitar and it's definitely going better!

However, I feel that my lack of understanding of music theory and very much untrained ear are holding me back. I find that in terms of dexterity, I can generally pick stuff up pretty easily, but I have no real understanding. I started off learning from a book, and doing all the proper exercises, scales etc. But then pretty much as soon as I could I kind of stopped doing that because I felt I wasn't getting anywhere, and just started learning to play songs from tab. It doesn't help that I seem to have a really bad memory for chords and notes. I just about know the major notes on the fretboard and major two-finger chords, that's pretty much it.

Question is: Can any of you think of any ways I can start to help myself memorise more and increase my general understanding of how music works? I also really want to improve my ear, as I'd love to get to the point where I can go and join in on sessions.

I'm not sure if this is all way too vague but any help would be much appreciated!

[Mike Bunting]

The good players play because they love to play and are happy to do the work to improve. You've been playing for a little over 6 months and sound like you are planning a war. Don't you just like to play? The answer to your question: relax, keep your ears open play a lot and have fun, remember we PLAY music.

[Brent Hutto]

There's no way to improve your listening but by doing it. A lot. I have fairly extensive musical background going to back to childhood and understand (in a "I can pass a written test" way) a good bit of music theory. But my ear is terrible. If you play a fiddle tune for me on mandolin and I try to duplicate it you'd better be ready to play it a good many times and slowly.

I'm no expert but based on my own experience I have a strong suspicion that you need to start with hearing chords and chord progressions. If you can't recognize simple "cadences" like V7-I (for instance a G7 chord then a C-major chord) for what they are, find ways to hear them in various contexts until you can. Then move on to I-IV-V7-I progressions and so forth. But that stuff's real hard to practice on your own, maybe you ought to get an ear-training (for Dummies) book and CD type of thing.

It's tricky. I can hear and identify the very simplest progressions like the I-IV-V7-I one that I mention and a couple others but that's about it. And I've put a fair bit of effort into it over the last few years.

[Rick Schmidlin]

There were two books early on that were important to me Roland White book Bluegrass Mandolin, which taught me jam numbers.
And Mel Bay's Anthology of Mandolin Music by Bud Orr that taught me simple but great songs. Spend a year with these books and you will feel that you are on the right road.At least I did in 2004-2005 and then the rest was much easier.

[catmandu2]

Welcome to the cafe StringP-

What I saw so far of Brent's reply looks like he's got some good advice there.

I wonder, if you can find someone to show you "how" it kind of works: how, if you listen to a song, and discover what the chords are, and play along, you can learn an awful lot if you know what to look for in music--you can break it down to complete rudiments, or redo it in a different way, if you want. Actually, I guess this is kind of what you were asking. And that's a good realization--as with music, once a "key" is discovered, it leads to many things.

This discovery process is really a good way of learning--which of course all learning is...but it propels you to further discoveries, as you see the relationships of notes, chords, scales, songs. One of the "keys" in music is that everything is relational--one thing leads to another, and many other things--so looking at it from all kinds of perspectives will enhance your capacity.

It might be helpful to have someone help you discover this--how to "use music" by understanding how it works--its structures, forms, elements. A good teacher can facilitate much learning by helping you look at it in novel ways. Ultimately, you should figure out how to teach yourself.

[Aisha]

This is if you have no opportunity to learn with a teacher (which is always the best)...

Another Mel Bay book (+CD) is 'The Complete Mandolinist' by Marilynn Mair. It is very useful and progressive. It teaches you how to read notes (if you're not reluctant to it, otherwise forget it), know where they are on the fretboard, and there are many exercises, scales but tunes as well (e.g. a tune using only notes on A and D strings, so you become familiar with a few notes in a progressive way without getting bored). I think this book is very good to develop your ear, and allows you to learn the basics of music theory and play mandolin at the same time. You won't find chords in it, but my opinion is if you have difficulties recognizing and memorizing single notes, it will be even more difficult for chords.

I would also recommend you don't try to learn many scales at the same time, otherwise your ears (and fingers...) will probably mix them up.

[yankees1]

I started just over a year ago and like you I have very little ability or experience but I do have an instructor and this has helped tremendously! I will never be as good as I would like but I absolutely love practicing and playing 10-12 songs now. I'm 64 years old so stick with it and don't give up! To me the journey is more fun than getting to the destination.

[JonZ]

You might try this:

Make print outs of all of the scales and chords that you want to be able to use with ease. Then go to the Old Time Jam website, where you can practice using them over the chord changes to standard old time tunes. Start by using just a few notes from each scale, like the pentatonics available on just two stings, and get used to using different scales as the chords change. Then gradually start adding notes like the flatted 7 and flatted 3rd, and eventually all of the major scale notes. Work your way up to using these notes on all four strings in open position. Then do the same with movable scale positions. Finally, work on improvising while moving through the positions you have learned. Start with just a few scale notes every time you move into new territory, and gradually build up.

I am doing this to work some new chord voicings that I "know" into chord voicings I can use.

Songs are great mnemonic devices.
(Thanks spell check!)

[yankees1]

You might try this:

Make print outs of all of the scales and chords that you want to be able to use with ease. Then go to the Old Time Jam website, where you can practice using them over the chord changes to standard old time tunes. Start by using just a few notes from each scale, like the pentatonics available on just two stings, and get used to using different scales as the chords change. Then gradually start adding notes like the flatted 7 and flatted 3rd, and eventually all of the major scale notes. Work your way up to using these notes on all four strings in open position. Then do the same with movable scale positions. Finally, work on improvising while moving through the positions you have learned. Start with just a few scale notes every time you move into new territory, and gradually build up.

I am doing this to work some new chord voicings that I "know" into chord voicings I can use.

Songs are great mnemonic devices.
(Thanks spell check!)

The Old Time Jam site is great! Thanks!

[albeham]

Thanks for the old time site!! String Punk...Relax just do it... play for the fun of it... even if its only for yourself..Find others to Jam with, jam with others that are better then you, this helps a lot.

Just play!!

AL


It needs to be in your heart, from your soul to your fingers..its how it works...

[JonZ]

By the way, if you started with guitar, you might want to check out the YouTube technique videos by Peter Martin. Right hand technique, in particular, is sometimes a difficult adjustment when going from guitar to mandolin.

[farmerjones]

In my experience, you don't get good to go to a jam, you go to a jam to get good.
Best way to learn a new language is to get in there and try to speak it/use it.
You didn't learn to speak by first identifying pronouns and predicates.

[JonZ]

I don't see a lot of improving going on at my local jam. In fact, the people who attend most regularly seem to be the most static. I think jams teach you some things, and woodsheding teaches you other things. It is similar with the kids I am coaching in basketball. They improve their "game wisdom" by scrimmaging, but also tend to fall back on poor fundamentals that have become habits. Only working on fundamentals in isolation gets new skills integrated into their game.

[Alex Orr]

If you've played some guitar and want to learn the basics of music theory then I would HIGHLY recommend picking up a copy of Bruce Emery's book, Music Principles for the Skeptical Guitarist. That thing is hands-down the best resource I have ever seen for teaching the basics of music theory, such as how chords work with other chords, the hows and whys of key signatures, chord constructions, why a scale is a scale, the circle of fifths and basic chord substitution concepts. There aren't any exercises per se that the author suggests you work through, and his writing style is exceptionally straight-forward and actually pretty funny at times. The principles are explained using examples for the guitar but they are universal in nature. I let a friend who was a beginning banjo player borrow a copy several years back and he said it was one of the best things he ever read in terms of learning the banjo.

Knowing that kind of stuff can really help. Just understanding why chords appear where they do in a song can help you go a long way to quickly picking up on any number of tunes you may play at a jam, even if you've never heard them or they are being played in a key you don't know them in. Knowing how a chord sounds and how it work with other chords can help you anticipate how a song will go. Knowing the basics of how notes work in a scale can make scales more than just pre-arranged series of notes to aimlessly mess with.

Actually, a pretty good companion to the Skeptical Guitarist book would be Mike Marshall's second Fundamentals DVD, since it does a great job of explaining chord construction on the mandolin. Those two resources explain the "whys" of chords, which should make it easier to learn chords because once you learn why you're putting your fingers at certain spots to create chords, it's no longer an act of memorization but simply putting ideas into practice. Sort've like that old saying about teaching a man to fish I suppose.

[catmandu2]

A little theory can go a long way. (A little more theory can do some things for ya too)

["Umm, fish?"]

A little theory can go a long way. (A little more theory can do some things for ya too)

A little theory can go a long way. A little more theory can confuse the heck out of you.

That's my version.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Mike Bunting - "relax, keep your ears open, play a lot and have fun,...". Well put Mike.
To the OP - listen a lot to what you want to play,both musically & stylistically . Do you want to play Bluegrass / jazz etc. ??. Then listen a LOT to the musical genre you wish to play in, pick out a player(s) who's style you like, & try to emulate that style.You'll develop a 'feel' for the music & learn to 'anticipate' the chord changes when they come. Listening is VERY important.
There's no easy way of doing it,even with all the modern tuition media to be had,& i'm, sure that you fully understand that.
Going back 48 years,i taught myself how to play Bluegrass Banjo. I HAD to learn to play by ear,there was nothing else,but i got there.It's a matter of how much you really want to do it. If YOU really want to play,give it time,practice as much as you can in the style of music that you want to play, & try to understand each thing that you learn.That's how i've taught myself Banjo ,Guitar & now,Mandolin. I'm far from being a musical prodigy,i'm an average Joe & if i can do it,so can you - try not to expect too much of yourself too soon,
Best wishes - Ivan

[300win]

Don't get too discouraged and beat yourself up. I don't know how anyone else is on here but after 45 + years of playing this is what I've found out. You will learn in spurts. You will work and work on something you think you will never get then all of a sudden one day like magic, it'll be there. You will get to peaks, plateau a while, then you'll start climbing again. And lastly but by far the least, you will always be learning even if you live to be 100. I don't care who you are or how good you are, the day you quit learning or trying to, you might as well quit.

[300win]

I'd like to add also one of my for instances; other day I looked at mandolin chord charts and although as I said playing for over 45+ years, I found out how many either I did not know or knew but did not know the name of them.

[ibanezae]

I started just over a year ago and like you I have very little ability or experience but I do have an instructor and this has helped tremendously! I will never be as good as I would like but I absolutely love practicing and playing 10-12 songs now. I'm 64 years old so stick with it and don't give up! To me the journey is more fun than getting to the destination.

I too am a beginner and sometimes feel that I am stagnating. I love playing my mandolin, two things that seem to be helping me: learning fiddle tunes (picked up Dix Bruce's "Backup Trax Old Time & fiddle tunes" with play along CD) and getting a decent instrument ( started off on a super cheapo).
But, like Yankees, I feel it's all about process. Talk to a potter and you'll find he gets jazzed about working the clay, the pot is secondary.

[Loretta Callahan]

I'd recommend finding a good teacher to get you jump started. There are a few things that can save you a lot of grief down the road like how to hold the neck and pick, and where to focus depending on the style of mandolin you'll be playing.

When I couldn't get to a teacher in person anymore, a kind cafe member recommended that I find a mandolin teacher who uses Skype. I did. Those lessons really, really helped me make an exponential leap in my playing. I'll be taking Skype lessons on and off for a long time.

Good luck!!


I can certainly relate to this one:

A little theory can go a long way. A little more theory can confuse the heck out of you.

That's my version.

[Ivan Kelsall]

When i began playing Banjo 48 years back,i had a teacher who taught me 'Classic' Banjo - waltzes,marches etc.,he was the ONLY teacher around so...... .He told me that as i played more,i'd get to a point where i wouldn't seem to be making any progress - i'm still waiting for that point to arrive !. I never gave such matters any thought,i totally immersed myself in my playing & enjoyed it.Yes,i had my off days as with anything,but we always make progress one way or another,even if we don't recognise it immediately,& even if it's simply being able to do what we've already learned,just that bit easier,
Ivan

[Markus]

I'd recommend finding a good teacher to get you jump started. There are a few things that can save you a lot of grief down the road like how to hold the neck and pick, and where to focus depending on the style of mandolin you'll be playing.

I couldn't agree more. I'm self-taught on guitar, and I can't count the amount of roadblocks I ran into because I missed something important back in the beginning. It's tremendously hard to unlearn bad habits you've ingrained.

Lessons can be incredibly useful to get good habits and technique down ... but also for a reason I don't see mentioned here.

The most useful things I learned from my mandolin teacher was how to learn a piece of music. How to split things into manageable tasks/goals, how to work on technique, and to listen with an `honest ear'. Yes, hand position, holding the pick, etc etc were addressed ... but more than that, he taught me how to learn.

I am astounded at how much faster my progress learning a song is post-lessons. It's still an incredible amount of muscle memory training, ironing out the bumpy parts - but I notice progress being made. Partly because of how I learned to work on tunes - get the details perfect slow, split out and work on all problem moves, and to track progress. How to go through a tune the first time, how to approach a new technique and drill problem spots, alternate fingering ideas/etc.

I also have a better overall practice routine - I fool around on mandolin every day for plenty of time ... but when I practice, I have a plan.

Lessons got me to focus on a limited range of practice material and to daily work it into shape before moving on to a new tune. Both metronome and playing with backup tracks [BIAB for me] have a BPM which I track over time.

I also record myself fairly regularly ... I hear more problems that way. My instructor was great as he called me on EVERYTHING, from missed pick direction, slight rhythm deviances, or sloppy playing - the only way I can come close is recording. I also find that listening to yesterday's 10 minute practice recording vs. 3 months earlier often shows progess you didn't notice.

There's a lot of subtle but fundamental changes in my music practice and music learning I gained from lessons that I doubt I could learn from a book, a video, or message board. It wasn't something my mando teacher taught directly - I got it more from the process we worked through, drills and suggestions he gave, and the whole approach taken.

I will state that I had an experienced mandolin teacher who knows mandolin - and is a full-time music instructor who teaches a lot of adults. He was aware that I wasn't going to be a long-term student and I think did me a good service helping me become a focused learner. I will also say that there's quite a few people here whose suggestion to plan your self-study and consider longer-term goals further developed these ideas I got out of lessons.

Anyway ... just my 2 cents.

[Alex Orr]

My instructor was great as he called me on EVERYTHING, from missed pick direction, slight rhythm deviances, or sloppy playing.

HAH!! I've been playing over three years and just started taking lessons in January. Same story. My instructor is a long time mando and guitar player and instructor, as well as producer, with significant professional experience in a number of genres on both instruments. I've always known I'm a bit sloppy on transitioning from a break back into rhythm in terms of adding extra notes and measures. When we play at practices, he calls me on it every time, rather than just letting it go like my jam buddies always do. On the one hand, it drives me crazy, but on the other hand, that kind of critical feedback and repeated attempts at helping me correct those bad habits are what I pay him for.

[Ryan Zerby]

I can read abc, tab and notation, but I decided to learn to play pennywhitle by ear, as I was playing ITM. I started by putting the instrument away and listening to recordings of the tune I wanted to play. Listening over and over and over. I got a few different recordings of it and played them back-to-back until I could easily hum the song without hearing the recording.... I'd find myself humming it when I wasn't thinking about it.

At that point, I'd pick up the whistle and try to noodle it out. The first tune takes forever! It took me almost a month to work out the first tune so that I could play it slowly, but part of that is because I chose Cooley's Reel, rather than something simpler. After a dozen tunes, it was much easier, and I noodled out Harvest Home in about an hour.

Pick a tune for which you've never seen notation and learn it by ear. Knowing notation is awesome, but being able to play by ear, to me, is a much deeper experience. With notation, I would always feel like I was translating... I was thinking "G", "E", "F#", "A" or 0--2--4--5. When playing by ear, I'm thinking of the tune directly.