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Thread: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

  1. #1
    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    For those of you that play out regularly - it would be helpful to me - and I think probably to a fair number of people that use this forum - to hear from you about what equipment you use to amplify your mando and what sort of playing environment you play in and also any comments you might have about what you think gives you the best outcome and why. There are so many choices out there now and it can get pretty confusing. Also, if you play guitar or another instrument as well, how do you incorporate that into your system?

    I know that there is a lot of info floating around on the forum on this topic - but it is spread all over the place and tough to pull together quickly - at least for me.
    Rob G.
    Vermont

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    Registered User Perry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I'm no expert but since you asked here's my rig.....I've used it in acoustic settings and with funky electric jam bands. It's not a perfect set-up and I don't think anything comes close to matching a good instrument through a good mic....to me it's always comes down to what I hate the least when it comes to plugging in. I like my current set-up because it is consistent, easy, fast and portable.

    -------
    A MIX A5 carbon fiber mandolin with an internal Schertler pick-up through a ToneBone Pre-Z pick-up. No effects; jsut a little house reverb if available.

    You can here what it sounds like here; this is pure pick-up signal (sorry for the poor video quality)




    I like the Schertler because I think it responds to right hand attack better then some pick-ups I've tried......though I haven't tried them all.

    I like the ToneBone Pre-Z for it's versatility and portability as well as the fact that it supports two instruments.

    I usually just rely on the house monitors instead of bringing my own amp; though when playing with drummers it would be helpful to have a dedicated monitor.

    Hope that helps a little bit
    Perry

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    Schertler, the preamp for microphones in my AC60 works fine. Mic preamp in a mixer channel is fine too.
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I just recently used my '56 F-12 with a K & K Mandolin Twin pickup into an Art MP Tube pre-amp directly into a Bose L1 PA with the Bose T1 Tone Module. It sounded wonderful in a small acoustic environment playing with 2 other guitarists. I was using a Rigel A Plus Deluxe into the Art MP pre-amp then into a Fender Acoustisonic amp with a line out to PA. It sounded pretty good too but this recent experience with the K & K equipped F-12 got my band mates to spin their heads and remark quite favorably on the new setup.

    Len B.
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    still Lefty & French Philippe Bony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?


    Schertler DynM straight to the board + a Shure SM
    Last edited by Philippe Bony; Jun-09-2009 at 12:02pm.

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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I have a Rigel mandolin which has a passive internal pickup that works very nicely right into a mixing board, and sometimes I use a Pick-up The World 9v preamp that plugs right into the instrument, has a volume knob and a female 1/4" output jack.

    For my Crump bouzouki and Santa Cruz guitar I use (1st choice) a Shure KSM-27 microphone or the Pick-Up The World #27 pickups in them, running into a D-Tar Solstice preamp and then to the house system.

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    Registered User Eliot Greenspan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    My main mando, Phoenix custom has the Baggs Radius, backup Breedlove has K & K twin. Run them through Baggs Para DI and/or MXR 10 Band EQ into amp or board depending upon situation.

    Not entirely in love w/ either solution, and am considering Schertler (yeah, during economic crisis, shees). Actually do think the K & K twin about as good as it gets for piezo, and Radius not too bad for $120.

    Question for the Schertler user's. One of my biggest problems w/ the soundboard mounted pickups mentioned above is that they pick up and dramatically amplify right hand contact w/ bridge, pick guard and top. Coming from 20 years or so on guitar before mando, I've developed a lot of dampening technique w/ right palm, which these pickups grab, but is not an audible distraction acoustically or through a microphone. Does the Schertler also accentuate these sounds? Can't see why it wouldn't, as it's also top mounted.

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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    compared to the radius, the noise form the schertler is practically nada.

    The radius is really noisy

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    This is sort of a moving target, because I play other instruments besides mandolin in both groups I'm currently playing in, and I'm still working out how much separate control I need for each instrument. Anyway, the latest setups are:

    Band A (Celtic-ish trio, mostly instrumental) -- I use a clip-on DPA 4099 mic on mandolin, clip-on ATM350 mic on octave mandolin, internal Baggs Dual Source pickup on nylon string guitar, all going via separate channels into a Soundcraft EFX8 compact stage mixer (if we're supplying PA), or to house PA. The fiddler uses another clip-on 4099, guitar player uses external KM-184 mic on stand. The guitar will probably switch to another clip-on mic, when we can afford it.

    Band B (OldTime/Bluegrass-ish/Blues string band) -- I play mandolin, acoustic guitar, resonator slide guitar, all into a KM-184 external mic. Again, that runs into a compact stage mixer (if we're supplying PA), or to house PA. Other players also using external mics, a mix of condensers and dynamic. I'm using the external mic approach with this band, partly because it's shared PA equipment, and partly because the other players are more used to working with external mics, so it keeps things consistent for stage appearance. Also, I switch between different instruments much more frequently during the set with this band. Working an external mic is easier than plugging/unplugging or moving around a bunch of different instruments that are already plugged-in with cords.

    Speakers for the smaller gigs where we provide the PA are a pair of old, original series powered Mackie SRM450's. They're okay, but they're kinda heavy (or I'm just getting too old to enjoy lugging them around). I want to down-size to something smaller and more lightweight for the smaller venues, and reserve the 450's for playing outdoors or larger rooms.
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    Fishman piezo + Crown mic into Rane MAP33 on viola, fiddle and mando. Resophonic tenor has a custom bridge pickup from Elderly. In a couple of weeks I'll have three mandolas with different pickup systems: 1. Seymour Duncan Dimebag Darrell, 2. Internal K&K MandoTwin, 3. McIntyre + internal Rane mic. That should be interesting! I have a Schertler violin pickup but haven't settled into using it on anything yet; have tried it on the A2Z. Still need a pickup solution for the mandocello. Octave mando has a Fishman undersaddle pickup.
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    still Lefty & French Philippe Bony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot Greenspan View Post
    Does the Schertler also accentuate these sounds?
    Short answer : No.

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    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    Right now I just play into a condenser mic with my Fern because I don't have a pick up installed but on my last Fern I had before this one I had a Mcintyre <sp?> Feather installed internally and I used a Fishman Pro Platinum EQ and I have to admit it sounded pretty good.

    I had a Fishman bridge pickup but I took it off because it was just too harsh for my liking.

    I am thinking about installing another Feather in my mandolin even though it is rare I plug in it is nice to have that option if needed. I usually plug in if I am playing with drums, electric guitar etc so that is not very often but like I said still nice to have that option if you want it!


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    Registered User Mike Romkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I had a Fishman bridge pickup but ... what Jim said. I like using mics. Somebody told me an AKG C 1000 was the way to go, but it didn't work for me. (If you want one, I have two you can have cheap. And no, this isn't an ad.) A Rode NT5 works great. I upgraded to a Neumann KM 184 in the spring, and it's fabulous for solos or just my mandolin (or fiddle or guitar). I bid on a couple on eBay before I got one for a little under $400, half the new price. And when things are too noisy or generally ratty for a condenser, a good old SM 57 is crude and effective. Of course, there's nothing like working one or two LD condensers, the situation permitting. Philosophically -- not to start an argument or even a religious war here (g) -- I prefer not to plug in. Practically, if even the guitar plugs into a direct box, you might as well do the same, unless you're in charge of the PA, or your mandolin will disappear from hearing.

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    Hipster wannabe GTG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I recently pulled the trigger on a K&K Silver Bullet. I haven't gigged with it yet, but my trials suggest that it is indeed quite 'hot', and feedback may be a problem in a loud environment. That being said, it sounds very good, and frees me from having to stay up close to a mic. For small combo acoustic shows through a PA (what I bought it for), it looks like it should work great but I'll report back after a few performances.
    Dan P,
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    Mandojan Jan Ellefsen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I have been very happy with my AKG 411L and I will really recommend trying it. It's a very small stick-on condenser. I use it with the AKG pre amp with a belt clip. It has two inputs with separate volume controls, so you can use two mics if you want to. (I have tried that, but it did not improve the sound so I have kept the second as a spare).
    You can also get this system as wireless, but then without the volume control.
    I have also tried it together with a Røde NT5, but only once, because I got trouble with feedback and the NT5 did not improve the sound much that I could hear.
    I have also tried it on a live recording together with and old, small condenser Neumann(I don't remember the number). When I later compared the two tracks I decided not to bother with any other set up for live playing.
    I have now used it for at least 300 gigs, and the good thing is that it is not very expencive and the mic and pre amp fits into a Calton case.
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  16. #16
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    For years - decades, really - for my late lamented F-12 I used two Barcus-Berry Hot Dots, one in each foot of the bridge (luthier cut a groove just deep enough and covered them over with a veneer), the wires went into the f-holes and out through a stereo 1/4" tailpin jack. I used an Arion 9-band EQ w/ gain pedal as preamp, into a Yamaha REX50 effects unit, most of the time using a distortion/reverb combo setting - reverb for sustain and warmth, distortion for "fattening" - and that was fine. Since I had my "sound" all set, I could run it dry through a PA and not worry about tweaking it much, and just play. When I was playing in a jug band, I'd mix that with my Shure SM 58 - the combination of piezo and mike signals pleased the band leader, who called it "the magic sound" - and I'd lean into the mike for solos. I did get a Fishman M-100 about five years ago, having heard good things about them and thinking the technology had evolved and it was time for an upgrade, but I didn't like the sound - too acoustic-sounding to my ears, and in retrospect I was probably just too used to what I had been using.

    After it was stolen, I got a 1935 A-00 which I just miked through my SM 58. Eventually I got a 1917 A which had a much fuller sound, still miking it. I got a Fishman M-100, again through a 1/4" tailpin jack, and somehow it sounded just right with this instrument. The signal was so much stronger than what I had been used to that I kept turning down the gizmos, eventually stopped using the REX50, and finally even the pre-amp, as my channel on the PA was running at about .3! Maybe I got a good one, maybe the instrument is that powerful, I don't really know. So I've switched that rig over to the 1916 H-2 mandola, which has the same B-B Hot Dots setup, and sounds really awful compared to the mandolin, without the effects. I did have to drastically reduce the reverb, though, as it's pretty boomy. I am probably going to get another Fishman bridge for it, and leave the REX50 with the MandoBird, where it belongs.

    After seeing what people have been saying about Schertlers I thought I'd check them out, but whoo-ee! That's too much. I'm happy with the Fishman; 'twill do for now.
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I play in a somewhat rockier Celtic band. It's pretty balls to the walls and larger venues. Running several instruments onstage is a bit of a challenge so how I've solved it was like this. For lead guitar, it's a completely separate rig so not an issue. For mando family instruments I run a mandolin and either an OM or bouzouki depending on the gig. My mandolin is a 1918 Gibson A that is beautiful. I love it to death and to avoid cutting holes in her I've mounted a Fishman m200 bridge. It keeps everything original and I can simply pop it off and replace it with the old bridge if I were to feel the need to restore it. My school of thought was this gorgeous piece of work has survived nearly a century of people playing her - who am I to break out the power drill..... (shudders). My OM and/or zouk both have built in passive pick ups. I don't like onboard equ's and active electronics on my acoustic instruments. I just don't understand the concept of cutting a perfectly good piece of lovely tone-wood out and replacing it with plastic and batteries. Convenient, but for me it's always felt wrong. I do play these a ton for my own enjoyment when I'm not gigging so the acoustic tone matters a lot. I seriously doubt I could tell in a million years as the tonal difference would be so minor, but it just doesn't sit well! Not to mention I can't count how many times I've done shows and people with their Takamine guitars are trying to beg 9 volt batteries off me!!!lol

    Both instruments feed down to my pedalboard which consists of firstly a Radial PZ - Preamp. This thing was the answer to my prayers! This is a dual channel preamp which I run a single channel out to a T-Rex Replica delay and T-Rex Roommate reverb. From here it routes to a Peterson Strobostomp tuner which has a built in active DI. From the DI an XLR to the snake/board and it all shoots back through my monitor. Sounds fiddley, but realistically it's 2 - 1/4" cables, one xlr and an AC cord and everything is up and running. I can essentially set up my mando and OM rig in about 1/4 of the time it took me to type this. Plus it also takes up only one channel on the board, has built in mutes, channel switching and independent volume controls for each instrument on the pre. I've just spent too much time trying to get a day dreaming soundman to un-mute my mandolin so now I'm in total control on stage. Additionally it has a notch filter on the Radial as well to deal with feedback problems if they occur and the sound is killer which is a plus! Oddly enough I've never had to utilize the notch filter and there are some really intense stage volumes going on here but it's comforting knowing it's there in a pinch. I loved the concept of the Schertler pick up and have heard great things about them but I'm a bit hesitant to shell out the cash required for one without having the opportunity to hear or try one live (no dealer anywhere near here that I'm aware of). Mic's are always better than pups of course, but the types of show's I'm involved with, they just wouldn't be practical. So, as of now I can't think of a better solution for my needs!
    Last edited by gw16; Jun-10-2009 at 12:07am.

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    Mandogal Barb Friedland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    Used to use a Radius into a Baggs Para DI into whatever house board was available. Absolutely hated the results no matter what I did. Now testing a K&K Silver Bullet and having NO problems with feedback and recently tested it in a loud environment too. I really love the clean authentic sound I can get with it. So far I've gone straight into the board with it but have acquired a Fishman Acoustic Blender and plan to test further with the Silver Bullet and the possible addition of a Shatten M-05 Pro bridge pickup.
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    For about the last year, my live dates have been exclusively with a duo. We don't really do the coffee house thing, we play bars and clubs. I carry a Larrivee six string guitar, either a Larrivee high-strung or a Fender twelve string guitar, a Michael Kelly Legacy (Fishman side panel) mandolin, a Goldtone electric banjo, a Supro six string lap steel for open D tuning, a Goldtone eight string lap steel in C6 tuning, and a Jerry Jones electric sitar, as for stringed instruments. It's a fairly wide array of electronics over the different instruments, so I'm always looking for that happy compromise.

    Currently, I split my signal between a Radial J48 active DI into a Mackie 808S powered mixer, and a tiny little Phil Jones "Cub" 100 watt amp, which I basically use as a monitor behind me. I use a pedal pedal board that contains an in-line tuner, a Fulltone Supa-Trem (tremolo), two analog delays and one digital modulated delay, and a gain chain that includes a Keely two-knobber compressor, a Paul Cochrane "Timmy" overdrive, and an Xotic RC booster. As for mandolin, I only use the RC booster and occasionally some subtle analog delay (typically between 400-600ms with subtle mix and repeats from a Maxon AD-900). The other stuff is primarily used for standard six string guitar, the lap steels, and the electric sitar. And I also use a Teese Picture wah occasionally for guitar or steel.

    The Xotic RC booster is pretty much the nucleus of my live setup. It offers tons of clean headroom and available boost. It has controls for pre- and post- gain, as well as bass and treble. The tapers of the pots are predictable in the good way. There are very few acoustic-electric or electric instruments that I can't get sounding good very quickly with it. The only exception I can think of is my Fender A/E 12 string (w/ Baggs Dual Source) that has a really strong low mids presentation. Other than that, the RC is golden for my purposes.

    I gigged a Baggs Para DI a couple dozen times, and I still have it. It's a solid unit, and I think I'd like it better if I were able to dial it in specifically to a couple of instruments, but I didn't warm up to it as a do-all box for my varied live arsenal. I'm sure it can be configured to sound great with most anything, but it's a matter of logistics and time in the live setting. Plus, a DI that contains EQ that is not foot-switch-able (quick return to reasonably 'flat/neutral' EQ) is basically useless for me. I prefer the robust headroom and gneral basic tone of the Radial J48 as a DI. Also, the Radial has internal rail voltage that will work with the (voltage-starved) 15V phantom power source of a Mackie, whereas the Baggs will absolutely not function sans battery within this scenario (unless I'm missing something).

    The Michael Kelly mando works quite well for me with my duo jobs. I've doubled on mando with several full band projects in recent years where my primary job was to provide electric guitar noises; for these settings, I definitely prefer the full bodied sound of my Ovation mando.

    As for eight string acoustic-electric mandolins in the live environment, my experience as to "feedback" has been that compression and mids are the kiss of death. They can handle a relatively flat EQ boost just fine, but I mostly avoid bumping compression and mids like The Plague, for what it's worth.

  20. #20
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    @ Tim Bowen:

    That's an impressive number of instruments! How are you handling different volume levels and EQ settings? Do they all go into separate channels on the powered mixer, and then you're taking an FX send/return into the pedal board? Or is it one compromise EQ setting for all the instruments?
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    @ Tim Bowen:

    That's an impressive number of instruments! How are you handling different volume levels and EQ settings? Do they all go into separate channels on the powered mixer, and then you're taking an FX send/return into the pedal board? Or is it one compromise EQ setting for all the instruments?
    Thanks! I've thought about all sorts of routing schemes, including separate mixer inputs, sub-mixing, etc. However, as an average joe working player in the trenches, I have to think about what's quick, practical, easy, and reasonably toneful. Every time I start thinking about routing schemes that would allow for absolute optimal tone from each instrument, it turns into a logistical can o' worms in a hurry.

    With the exception of my Larrivee high-strung and Fender twelve string acoustic-electric guitars, all of my instruments have onboard tone and volume controls. The lap steels have simple treble rolloff pots for tone, which is a format I'm entirely comfortable with, since they're basically "electric guitars". No send/return/FX loops for me. Whatever instrument I'm playing at the time runs through the little pedal board and is then split to PA and my little acoustic amp monitor. I use the aforementioned RC booster as my master volume and tone, in tandem with the instruments' controls. I've gigged my rig enough to be able to match volumes and get pleasing EQ fairly quickly, but there was quite a bit of 'on-the-job' trial and error that led to that comfort zone. As mentioned in my earlier post, the only real sonic monkey wrench in the gears for me is the Fender 12, which is a bit boomy in the low mids; it wants attenuation/notch in the mids, and that's about the only thing the RC Boost doesn't deliver.

    I play my Larrivee six string about 50% of the time at typical jobs, so I set the RC booster's controls specifically for it, and I also use subtle compression with that guitar. With those settings on the RC, I can pick up the MK mando, leave its side panel EQ basically flat, stomp off the compressor pedal, and it's good to go. The Larrivee high-strung has a very early Fishman Prefix which has extremely hot output, as piezos go; for it, I back down the RC's pre-gain a tad, back down considerably on the pedal's master volume, and roll back the high end at the pedal just a bit. The Goldtone electric banjo has fairly low output, so I boost the RC's pre-gain a bit and bump up the master volume liberally. Also, in getting it to actually sound like a "banjo", it is inherently somewhat deficient as to high end, so I tweak the RC's treble pot accordingly. I use the Supro six string lap steel in D tuning for bluesy stuff. It has a Dimarzio humbucker which snarls for days. I want a throaty growl from it, so I engage the Timmy overdrive ped in tandem with the RC boost to add clarity, and I dial in shades of grey from the Supro's volume and treble rolloff pots. I use the Goldtone eight string lap steel in C6 mostly for western swing and honky tonk type tunes. It wants a bright, clear tone with subtle compression, so I use the RC and the Keely compressor for it. The Jerry Jones electric sitar has dedicated volume and tone pots for the bridge and neck pickups, as well as for the drone string section, so as to functionality, it basically behaves like an electric guitar, meaning that I can stomp whatever gainer the tune calls for.

    I'm a staff of one. If I could afford a personal tech, I'd no doubt go hog wild nuts with routing schemes. That said, I've been reasonably pleased with my live tones over the last year or so, compromise that they are. Benchtesting tones at home goes only so far, as a full blown PA at show volumes always sounds, feels, and reacts vastly different than whatever I can conjure here at the shack with an acoustic amp. However, I don't feel that the tone tests at home are a waste of time at all, as at the very least, they do provide a heads up as to the inherent sonic quirks and idiosyncrasies of the different instruments.

  22. #22
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    Tim, thanks for the info on your rig.

    I'm on the lower end of the "multi instrumentalist" scale with just three instruments at a gig, but that's one more instrument than will fit the easy switching and EQ solutions for playing with two instruments with pickups, like the Tonebone PZ-Pre. I need to make some decisions about whether to keep it simple with an external mic (which isn't actually all that simple, because the mic has to be adjusted for distance and angle for each instrument swap), or go to a fully wired-in approach. It helps to hear what everyone else is doing.
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    I have a Schaller stick-on piezo and a Washburn ROMP internal mini condenser mic. Both cheap and cheerful. When I use those i put them through a Fishman ProEQ II preamp, and also sometimes a 7-band EQ pedal.

    Usually, however, I play into a normal stand-mounted condenser and don't use the pickups.

    Whichever option I use, it goes into my Marshall AS50 D acoustic combo. At largish and outdoor gigs I take a feed from the XLR output on the back of the combo and DI into the PA. That is how it was set up for the gig in the video. Unfortunately, the acoustics in the shed weren't great and the camera didn't capture the sound too well either. Anyway, you can just about make out the mic and the Marshall combo.

    I'm very happy with my set up. The Marshall has very good anti-feedback measures built in.


  24. #24
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    For my acoustic BRW (photo to the left), it depends on what the venue provides. If it sounds good as is, I go with house PA. If the house PA is lacking , I'll attach my Schertler to the mandolin, and first try to run the XLR cable into the board. if it still sounds unsatisfactory, next, I'll pull out my 24 pound Fishman Loudbox acoustic amp, place it on a chair behind my ear, and plug into that. It serves as a personal monitor and stage amp in one unit. In rare circumstances, I might output the Loudbox directly into the house amp. That last idea always seems a bit too complicated, onstage, to be worth the extra cabling.

    I use my Godin electro-acoustic A8 mandolin almost exclusively for recording. I always record it dry into Protools, and then, in mixing phase, run it through one of several mandolin presets I've programmed into Guitar Rig software, used as a plugin.

    As an aside, I'm always curious if anyone else in the Cafe, uses Guitar Rig. if so it would be fun to share presets.
    Explore some of my published music here.

    —Jim

    Sierra F5 #30 (2005)
    Altman 2-point (2007)
    Portuguese fado cittern (1965)

  25. #25
    Mike Parks woodwizard's Avatar
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    Jul 2007
    Location
    Knoxville (Piney Bay) Arkansas
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    Default Re: Do you play out? What pickup/pre-amp etc. do you use?

    We play inside and outside a lot. I use a Schertler DynM and go straight to a DI most of the time but do use a Fishman Pro EQII preamp and the Schertler at times. With the Schertler I think you get the closest thing in a pickup that compares to a mic
    I Pick, Therefore I Grin! ... "Good Music Any OLD-TIME"

    1922 Gibson F2
    2006 Gibson F5 Goldrush
    2015 Martin HD28-V
    2017 Gibson J45

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