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Thread: Are these Mandolins?

  1. #1

    Default Are these Mandolins?

    Won two items in a local online charity thrift store auction. The auction picture only showed top views of both. Did not pay much. Thought they were interesting – I am not a musician. My sons play some instruments.

    As you can see in the pictures significant damage to both. Probably nothing more than curiosity/decoration item now. Before I do something dumb to them, thought I should check here to see if anyone might know anything:

    Are they Mandolins? Most I see here and other sites have oval holes not round. Does a round sound hole say its older, lower quality, likely local craftsman made, or not Mandolins?

    Who might have made? How old they are? Are they worth trying to repair/restore?

    The smaller one looks like it has had the tuning mechanism added (not all screws holes used) and one has been replaced or they never matched. Is it possible the smaller one originally just had tuning pegs and the mechanism added at some later date?

    Picture of smaller one attached. Will have to put picture of larger on in separate post with questions.
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  2. #2
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Could that be a piccolo mandoin?
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  3. #3
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    We'd have to know scale length, but it certainly is in the mandolin family. Hardly worth repairing IMHO, but let those more expert than I chime in.
    Bill

  4. #4
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    If it has a shorter scale length, it's probably a piccolo mandolin. If it has standard scale length (13" or so), then it's a "pochette" or pocket mandolin ... the narrow body and shallow bowl are for portability.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    If it has a shorter scale length, it's probably a piccolo mandolin. If it has standard scale length (13" or so), then it's a "pochette" or pocket mandolin ... the narrow body and shallow bowl are for portability.
    Total lenght is 20.5 inches. Scale is 7.5 inches from top bone to last bottom fret. Max body width is just under 4 inches.

  6. #6
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    How long from nut (top bone) to the 12th fret? Double that measurement to get scale length.
    Scaling from the photos, using the provided dimensions it appears that the scale length is about 12.4 inches. Of course scaling from photos is not terribly accurate.
    Bill Snyder

  7. #7

    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Snyder View Post
    How long from nut (top bone) to the 12th fret? Double that measurement to get scale length.
    Scaling from the photos, using the provided dimensions it appears that the scale length is about 12.4 inches. Of course scaling from photos is not terribly accurate.
    Your photo scalling is correct. It measures 6.25 inches from nut (top bone) to the 12th fret. So then scale length is 12.5 inches. Thanks !! for helping.

  8. #8
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    These were usually made in Germany as indicated on the linked thread above. This one is pretty interesting since it is a bowlback -- most were flat. OTOH it might take a bunch of time/money to restore and likely it would not be worth it.
    Jim

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Thanks to All !! With your help I found out they are Mandolins, but probably not worth having professionally restored.

    I still think they are neat. Knowing now, if I mess them up its no big deal, I will find a place to keep and add them to my “when I retire project list”.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    While inspecting the small Mandolin, I noticed the corner of what looked like a label under paper that was possible added to stabilize the back from an earlier repair. I scraped off some areas that came off somewhat easy. Thought I would check to see if anyone can identify Origin or Maker from the information exposed?

    Year of 1915 showing.
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  11. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Ah, the plot thickens. From what we can tell from the label fragments, it looks like an italian maker possibly from Napoli. Of course, there were hundreds of such shops in that city back then. I don't know if we can check labels to see what matches but this is more interesting and might be worth more than a German one. Still it does need a lot of work.
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  12. #12
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Yikes!! I figured it out from just those fragments. Luck I guess. It is made by Fratelli DeFalco (DeFalco Brothers) in Napoli. Here are a few samples of labels.
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    Jim

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Yikes!! I figured it out from just those fragments. Luck I guess. It is made by Fratelli DeFalco (DeFalco Brothers) in Napoli. Here are a few samples of labels.
    Wow !! Your very quick. Thank You !!! So should I stop messing with it because its worth having a professional look at?

  14. #14
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Yeah, I scared myself with this obsession. I saw the ..POL.. and the ..LI DE.. and realized that the larger, curved type was likely Fratelli De (something). So I looked in my files and checked deFalco first. Luck... sort of.

    I have a feeling that you might have a time finding anyone who is willing/knowledgeable to work on it. Even with all the work, I would not say that this is a super valuable instrument. At best it would be a nice collectable item -- I highly doubt that it would be something that people would kill for. It still may not be worth all that much. Also, there is a bunch of bad repairs and sad gluing done on it, so that would have to be undone.

    If you have the chops, it might be worth trying it yourself. Dave Hynds is a Englishman in France who sort of specializes in these lost causes. Perhaps it might be good to ship it to him and see what he can do. BTW I am not sure where you are located in the world, but i somehow assumed it was north America.
    Jim

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Yeah, I scared myself with this obsession. I saw the ..POL.. and the ..LI DE.. and realized that the larger, curved type was likely Fratelli De (something). So I looked in my files and checked deFalco first. Luck... sort of.

    I have a feeling that you might have a time finding anyone who is willing/knowledgeable to work on it. Even with all the work, I would not say that this is a super valuable instrument. At best it would be a nice collectable item -- I highly doubt that it would be something that people would kill for. It still may not be worth all that much. Also, there is a bunch of bad repairs and sad gluing done on it, so that would have to be undone.

    If you have the chops, it might be worth trying it yourself. Dave Hynds is a Englishman in France who sort of specializes in these lost causes. Perhaps it might be good to ship it to him and see what he can do. BTW I am not sure where you are located in the world, but i somehow assumed it was north America.
    I live in US Indiana. Yes, after looking at other much fancier examples on this site and now others, I felt it was not a high end unit. Its nice to know, thanks to you, where it came from.

    It is disappointing that the glue is on the outside. Not sure one can get it off without ruining the present patina. The separation repairs on the top side were also poorly done.

    If one would want to try to disassemble and rebuild, what is the best way to breakdown the glue joints? Say to remove the top sound board? Hot steam?

  16. #16
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    With that scale length (about the same as a full-size mandolin), it is a pocket mandolin, not a piccolo mandolin. We've have a few old threads on these -- seems they were used largely by instructors for teaching, and those who had one or had played one said that the narrow soundboard and small bowl seriously compromises the tone and volume.

    I think Jim's comment about Neapolitan instruments being potentially more valuable than German ones was related to the (remote) possibility that this might have been the product of one of the really big names (Vinaccia, Calace and Embergher, although I'm not sure any of them ever made pocket bowlbacks). Fratelli di Falco are not one of the big names, and I strongly suspect that the instrument after professional restoration would be worth less than the cost of restoring it. So, I would say feel free to try your own hand.

    Martin

  17. #17
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Amazing detective work, Jim.....I enjoy these pochette mandolins. Even the name itself. I have owned a couple labeled "Holdrio-Picolo" which show up fairly often and may contribute to mistaking them as piccolo mandolins. The ones I had were very nicely made with interesting little details. Alas, they didn't really sound like much and I never actually put one in my pocket. I keep a file of them, though, since I enjoy the long attenuated design form. Here are two-an Italian bowlback version from Puglisi and a Swiss one that is muy estirada. The missing bridge no doubt adds to that effect. With a bit of care and patience you can have get yours back in working order yourself. Even better if they inspire you to play them.......

    Mick
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  18. #18
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Are these related to the Greek baglama at all? I mean, I know the number of courses and tuning is different; just wondering if somewhere in either intrument's development there was a connection.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    Thanks !! again to all. I will do some reading and probably see what I can do. You have a wonderful site here.

  20. #20
    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are these Mandolins?

    You might try De-Glue Goo to remove any excess glue.
    Bill Snyder

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