Adirondack Medullary Rays or ?

**adlerburg** · Dec-04-2010, 4:59pm

Question for the wood Guru's please...
My new Collings MF5-V has a very interesting top. It has cross grain swirls that are similar to the patterns on Damascus Steel. Are these medullary rays reacting (absorbing) to the stain of the burst? Or some other cross grain pattern? They're appear secondary and perpendicular to the annual grain lines.
Thanks.
-Mick

**sunburst** · Dec-04-2010, 5:10pm

You got it. That's exactly what that is, "ray fleck".

**adlerburg** · Dec-04-2010, 5:14pm

Originally Posted by sunburst

You got it. That's exactly what that is, "ray fleck".

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Are mando tops with the rays considered premium tops, as they are with guitar tops? I'm pretty sure I read that only tops that are pretty close to perfectly quartered will show the rays.. is that correct? Or are they more ordinary than I'd like to think

Thanks,
-Mick

**sunburst** · Dec-04-2010, 5:53pm

Ray fleck shows only on the nearly-to-perfectly vertical grained portion of a spruce top, so their visible presence shows that the top is very nearly exactly quartered, and that can be a good thing in guitar tops because it can mean lateral stiffness is good. It is, however possible for the top to be perfectly quartered and not have particularly good stiffness longitudinally or laterally, so the presence of ray fleck does not always mean the top is "premium".
The tops of carved-top mandolins are... carved into an arch, so the entirety of the top cannot be perfectly quartered, but even so, the presence of ray fleck is a good indicator of a quality top with the same caveat as for guitar tops. There are other characteristics, like grain run out, that can lower the quality of a top that shows ray fleck, so again, the presence of ray fleck is not a guarantee of quality.

Interestingly, many Loar mandolins had tops carved from off-quarter wood, and the resulting lack of ray fleck made it possible for the hand rubbed sunbursts on them to be as 'homogeneous" (for lack of a better word) as they are. It is much easier to get the "Loar look" with a top that is off-quarter, so many builders who want that look use tops that are off-quarter.

That may be more than you really wanted to know about the subject, but 'it just goes to show', things are seldom as simple as "tops with the rays are considered premium tops", there's usually more to it than that.

**adlerburg** · Dec-04-2010, 6:14pm

Thank you John. Beyond just those "flecks", if I move a flashlight over the top, the entire top moves with silking. It's very interesting to me aesthetically. Kind of like certain bearclaw tops grab my attention for way longer than it should. I guess I'm a cheap date!
Thanks,
-Mick

**sunburst** · Dec-04-2010, 6:19pm

Some of us can be fascinated by the details of a piece of wood for hours! There's no cure, as far as I know...

**John Soper** · Dec-04-2010, 6:25pm

Yeah, if it is that disturbing to you, I'd gladly take it off your hands :-) - looks great to me...

**adlerburg** · Dec-05-2010, 6:30am

Originally Posted by sunburst

"Ray fleck shows only on the nearly-to-perfectly vertical grained portion of a spruce top, so their visible presence shows that the top is very nearly exactly quartered...."
".....There are other characteristics, like grain run out, that can lower the quality of a top that shows ray fleck, so again, the presence of ray fleck is not a guarantee of quality."

I'm not clear on something please... I was always under the impression that there is no runout in a perfectly quartered piece of wood, and the further off quarter you go, the more run out you'll have. Is this accurate? If so, how can a top showing ray fleck have run out?
Thanks
-Mick

**sunburst** · Dec-05-2010, 6:48am

The grain in a tree runs up and down the trunk, so the grain of a board runs lengthwise the board. When a log is sawn into boards, especially when it's quartersawn, the sawyer must keep the heart of the tree parallel to the saw path. This is up to the sawyer because logs are nearly always tapered, so simply dogging the log into the mill will normally put the small end of the log closer to the saw blade, and that is in fact the quickest, easiest way to dog the log into the mill so that's how it's usually done in production mills. You might be able to visualize how the grain of a board sawed out that way will have grain running somewhat diagonally through the board rather than straight from end to end. That is grain run out.
Trees often grow with spiral grain; that is, the grain spirals around the tree, more so as it grows older usually, and if they do, it is impossible to saw boards that do not have grain run out, yet they can be perfectly quartered.
Highest quality tone wood is split from billets taken from absolutely straight grained trees. When that is done, there is minimal grain run out.
So, top wood can come from sawn lumber, in which case it has a pretty small chance of having no grain run out, or from split billets, in which case grain run out is minimal. If the pieces are exactly "quartered", they will show ray fleck regardless how they were produced.

**Chris Oliver** · Dec-05-2010, 7:55am

Mick,
I pick my guitar and mandolin tops out at Old Standard Wood just East of Columbia, MO. That is also where Collings, Ghilcrist, etc. get a lot of their tops (at least it was last summer). I inspected a few of tops destined for Collings and would be happy to build with any that I saw. Most of the tops cut at Old Standard are as good as it gets. Collings tops appeared to be the 'cream' of the crop in that they were visually better matched and whiter (almost a Sitka look) than the rest.

**adlerburg** · Dec-05-2010, 8:54am

Thanks Guys... Jeez, this wood stuff is mighty fascinating! And every once in a while I see a spruce top that has figure... where you move a light across it and you can see the shimmering of rainbow colors going across the entire thing. At the risk of asking "too" much, what is that phenomena please? I wouldn't think it's ray fleck (is it?) as it encompasses the entire top with more of a negative/positive view as you pass the light over it at certain angles.
Makes me want to quit me day gig and take up forestry.. no kidding!
Thanks again for all the info.
-Mick

**sunburst** · Dec-05-2010, 9:02am

Some woods, including spruce display chatoyancy. That is a differential reflection of light from various angles (look it up for a better definition that I can give you). It is, BTW, the usual way to detect grain run out in a two piece top. If the top looks like it is two different colors, one on each side of the center seam, that is because of the grain run out causing the chatouancy of the wood to reflect differently on each side of the seam.

**Chris Oliver** · Dec-05-2010, 9:24am

Mick,
What your are seeing is most likely the end grain in a top that has some runout. Viewing from one direction makes one side light up, then tilting the instrument allows the other side to show.

Here is a pic from Frank Ford's site showing runout in a top. I do not have a shot of the effect you are referring, but know what you mean.

**adlerburg** · Dec-05-2010, 9:58am

Thank you... since we've touched on so much here, I'd like to ask what the bearclaw figure is. Is it some unexplained phenomenon such as birdseye figure in maple?

**Chris Biorkman** · Dec-05-2010, 10:17am

My old MF5 had the same swirling in the top. My new Heiden has a little character in the top too, although not the same kind. I like it.

**Spruce** · Dec-05-2010, 10:21am

Originally Posted by adlerburg

Thank you... since we've touched on so much here, I'd like to ask what the bearclaw figure is. Is it some unexplained phenomenon such as birdseye figure in maple?

Yep.
Probably genetics in the case of 'claw...

**whyner** · Dec-05-2010, 11:03am

Originally Posted by sunburst

The grain in a tree runs up and down the trunk, so the grain of a board runs lengthwise the board. When a log is sawn into boards, especially when it's quartersawn, the sawyer must keep the heart of the tree parallel to the saw path. This is up to the sawyer because logs are nearly always tapered, so simply dogging the log into the mill will normally put the small end of the log closer to the saw blade, and that is in fact the quickest, easiest way to dog the log into the mill so that's how it's usually done in production mills. You might be able to visualize how the grain of a board sawed out that way will have grain running somewhat diagonally through the board rather than straight from end to end. That is grain run out.
Trees often grow with spiral grain; that is, the grain spirals around the tree, more so as it grows older usually, and if they do, it is impossible to saw boards that do not have grain run out, yet they can be perfectly quartered.
Highest quality tone wood is split from billets taken from absolutely straight grained trees. When that is done, there is minimal grain run out.
So, top wood can come from sawn lumber, in which case it has a pretty small chance of having no grain run out, or from split billets, in which case grain run out is minimal. If the pieces are exactly "quartered", they will show ray fleck regardless how they were produced.

Great explaination! FWIW I've never seen a production mill cut quarter sawn as the the amount of waste would be tremendous and kill any overrun the mill can realize. Instead the lumber is sawn in thick,wide flat grain cants, then resawn (usually through a gang edger) into vertical grain shop boards. The wood is then graded according to it's quality.

Incidently in this production scenario mills have knees (the backstop for the log with the dogs) that are independently adjusted and at a minimum laser lights to guide the sawyer to cutting the log. Since the higher quality wood is on the outside the cuts are made parallel to the outside of the log to maximize shop grade lumber. That forces the taper of the log to the inside cant the where the lower grade wood with knots and course grain is. That cant is then resawn into dimension lumber. Please keep in mind this is a production environment. I'm certain there are speciallty operations that quarter saw for specific markets. The best way to fully recover vertical grain wood for instrument making would be splitting. I love splitting shingles from a redwood, W. Red Cedar or Sugar Pine bolt, something about spliiting off an 18" or 24" sheet of wood with that fro that's just is a gas!

Steve - bonehead noob
Oregon

**sunburst** · Dec-05-2010, 12:55pm

Originally Posted by whyner

...The best way to fully recover vertical grain wood for instrument making would be splitting. I love splitting shingles from a redwood, W. Red Cedar or Sugar Pine bolt, something about spliiting off an 18" or 24" sheet of wood with that fro that's just is a gas!

True, but W. red is renowned for splitting straight because it seldom (if ever?) grows with spiral grain. I don't know about sugar pine, but spruce that splits perfectly straight is the exception rather than the rule, so even split spruce tops can end up with some grain run out after further processing. The person who processes the billet or bolt can (and usually does) saw top blanks from the bolt parallel to the grain at the bark surface so that the run out is concentrated at the other side of the piece. The idea is for the bark edges to be joined so the center of the top has no grain run out and the center seam will not show the differential reflection of light. If the builder joints the other side (the heart edge rather than the bark edge) the same top will show considerable run out at the center seam.

Some woods, like curly maple, aren't good candidates for splitting. The best way to fully recover vertical grain wood for instruments in that case is sawing radially.

Click image for larger version.

Name: resaw.web.jpg
Views: 71
Size: 79.1 KB
ID: 65594

Here's a picture of radial sawing that I didn't include in this thread. It doesn't really show what's going on very well, but the result is wedge shaped pieces with vertical grain and minimal run out, the tree itself being the limiting factor on run out.

**adlerburg** · Dec-05-2010, 1:54pm

Is tighter (slow growth in high/cold elevations) grained spruce more easily and accurately split than the faster growth wider grained Spruce?

**sunburst** · Dec-05-2010, 2:07pm

Not that I know of.

**John Arnold** · Dec-06-2010, 3:53pm

The best splitting red spruce I have cut has been the wide grain. In general, the faster-growing red spruce trees have less spiral, and less interlocked grain.

Most of the tops cut at Old Standard are as good as it gets.

Too bad they don't cut from split billets, because Collings has pretty high standards when it comes to runout.

**Chris Oliver** · Dec-06-2010, 7:50pm

John, I was surprised that they do not do the split billet method and I have actually never asked why. I suppose that since I go hand select mine I have never had to worry too much about runout.... of course, spruce can be deceiving to the eye where the fro would know for sure.

**John Arnold** · Dec-08-2010, 5:53pm

There are at least a couple of reasons not to cut from split billets, but IMHO, they don't offset the fact that it often produces inferior wood.
Cutting from split billets is more labor-intensive.
Red spruce logs are small and contain many defects...as a result, splitting them usually will reduce the yield.