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Thread: how do I mic in a large loud band?

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    Smile how do I mic in a large loud band?

    I have done all I could, it seems, to research with out asking, and can’t be sure of a solution. So here I am and here it is. Your basic “feedback” inspired problem.

    I play in a loud “rock” band. In it is 2 guitars, base, harp, sax, vocals, flute (sometimes), mandolin, and drums (not mic’d). I play the lm700 loar mandolin (thanks Robert F!) with an ATM350 pro clipped to a tone guard. This goes into an AC90 roland (I love this amp!).

    On a large stage, this works ok. But in practice, and some stage areas, there is feedback. I do understand the dynamics of this situation, as the ATM350 is a highly sensitive condenser mic. I am sure some reading are laughing a little at the fact I have a condenser mic of this sort in a band like this, and I think it’s not the best choice either. However, this was the purchase I made back when trying to keep up and appease the band that kept getting bigger and louder. I feel I need to change the mic set up. Something that is the best option for tighter space with lots of volume.

    Any ideas or testimonials will help alot. Hope this thread helps others too.

    Thanks all!

    P.S. I play BG with old timers too, so drilling holes and adding on-board stuff may cost me my life if they ever saw it happen BUT please leave it as a suggestion if it's a good option as it may help someone else problem solve this similar issue.

  2. #2

    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    i would recommend to keep using what you have and try to find a good stage arrangement to minimize feed back. and also you should try some sort of stick on pickup that requires no modification of your axe. you will not really be happy with the sound of the pick up but you can use both at the same time and blend your sound. going more one way or the other til the issues stop. of course there is a point where you will all ways have feed back because even your acoustic mandolin if it is a good one will itself pick up noise and be part of the problem.

    other options try a noise gate and or a eq to help cancel trouble frequency also there are feed back destroyer gear out there you could experiment with.

    last option go electric

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    A sound absorbing partition between players? [they do that in studios don't they?]

    More sensitive the microphone the more it will hear a lot more than you wish.

    Try a dynamic mic virtually in contact with the soundhole,

    adding a foam windscreen will soften the bump contact.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    It might be an uphill battle if you're really trying to play at rock band stage levels on a small stage, but you might get a few db more gain before feedback if you optimize your current setup:

    The AC90 has an auto feedback control widget (auto detection or manual sweep). Have you tried using it, and does it help? You could try adding an additional parametric EQ pedal or auto feedback buster, but if the amp's feedback reduction isn't helping, then you might be past the point where EQ notching can help.

    The ATM350 is a good mic; it was the first clip-on I tried, and I still use it on my Dobro. If you're not doing this already, then try pointing it straight down into the lower end of the bottom (bass side) F-hole of your mandolin. Place it so the foam "blimp" is almost touching, or actually touching, the edges of the F-hole. That will get you the loudest possible volume from your mandolin through the mic, without the unnatural tone you'd get by actually pushing it inside the F-hole. A placement that yields naturally louder volume through the mic, means less gain added at the PA mixer, which means easier feedback control. When it comes to feedback, the loudest source wins. Your current clip-on mic position may not be close enough.

    Experiment with your amp placement. Don't get any closer than you have to, and try aiming it so you're not directly in the firing line of the tweeter or horn. If the feedback is more of a low frequency hum (main body resonance of the mandolin), then this may not help as much, but it's still worth trying. Also, try tilting the amp on its back at a 45 degree angle, to reduce reflections off the stage floor.

    If nothing works, then you could add a stick-on pickup like the K&K. Keep the ATM350 in reserve for those quieter stages and oldtimer BG gigs where you can have the more natural tone of the clip-on mic.

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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    I've started and deleted my reply three times. All I can really think of, based on your band make-up, is to go direct to a solid-bodied electric mandolin. The K&K suggestion of Folded is sound, but if it's that rock-ish a band, might as well go electric. Hey, if was good enough for Bob Wills' band...

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Read all that Tim2723 has said in favor of Ovations, and others wrote in favor of Godin A8's
    Last edited by mandroid; Nov-05-2010 at 11:59pm.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    In loud, tight quarters you have to be as feedback-proof as possible. Once feedback occurs the damage is already done. You've disrupted the tune, distracted the band, and the audience has lost their groove. Feedback can't be controlled, it must be prevented. Trying to do that with a microphone is at best shoveling water against the tide. At worst it's Russian roulette. It didn't feedback on this tune, but it might on the next.

    I've lived in that impossible situation for years. The only reliable fix I've found is to use a mandolin designed for the purpose. The solid-body electric is one solution, but at the price of a radically different tone. The Ovation family mandolins are the only way I've survived. Others prefer the Godin A8. But the solution lies in using technology intended for the purpose. Everything else wishful thinking. Add-on electronics are wonderful things. With enough electronic wizardry you can get pretty far. But ultimately they too will feedback under the right conditions. It takes a compromise to use the purpose-designed mandolins, but the world is an imperfect place.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Also do not worry to much about preserving that natural mandolin sound .with that many instruments in unfavorable playing situations you will most likely experience phase cancellations as well as other frequency's being boosted ( when i played in a band with one 6 and one 12 string guitar we used to get a constant g note sustained through the songs). so by the time the audience hears your mandolin there might not be much more than the highs cutting through. in which case a electric type mando would sound better

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    As contrary as it might seem considering how hard we work to get a great sound, Rico's advise is very practical. The small sacrifice in tone from a pickup is hardly ever noticed in the loud bar setting. Add to that the fact that if you're worried about your mic feeding back, you're not fully focused on your music. A small loss in tone goes largely unnoticed when the instruments are screaming, but if you start messing up because you're struggling with technology, everybody hears it.
    Last edited by Tim2723; Nov-07-2010 at 1:05am.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim2723 View Post
    As contrary as it might seem considering how hard we work to get a great sound, Rico's advise is very practical. The small sacrifice in tone from a pickup is hardly ever noticed in the loud bar setting. Add to that the fact that if you're worried about your mic feeding back, you're not fully focused on your music. A small loss in tone goes largely unnoticed when the instruments are screaming, but if you start messing up because you're struggling with technology, everybody hears it.
    Well said. Sadly, most people wouldn't hear the difference in tone. We know what our instruments sound like acoustically and we strive to recreate that sound in live situations, as much as possible. Even if we're successful, it matters not to the average person, who has no experience evaluating the quality of sound in an acoustic instrument. The average person in a loud bar only needs to hear you. Unless it's absolutely horrendous, the tone of your instrument just isn't that important (in those specific types of situations).

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandolirius View Post
    Well said. Sadly, most people wouldn't hear the difference in tone.
    That may be true for the OP's situation playing in a loud rock band, but please... let's not take that as some kind of general principal for reinforcing acoustic instruments through a PA. It's too easy to assume that, based on the tone of some posts in this thread.

    Use a solidbody mandolin if you have to, but don't ever assume the audience can't tell the difference between a well-amplified acoustic instrument and a least-common-denominator approach, when the stage volume isn't at ear-blistering levels. There is a reason why bands like Punch Brothers use clip-on mics, and other bands play through external mics. Different strokes...

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    That may be true for the OP's situation playing in a loud rock band, but please... let's not take that as some kind of general principal for reinforcing acoustic instruments through a PA. It's too easy to assume that, based on the tone of some posts in this thread.

    Use a solidbody mandolin if you have to, but don't ever assume the audience can't tell the difference between a well-amplified acoustic instrument and a least-common-denominator approach, when the stage volume isn't at ear-blistering levels. There is a reason why bands like Punch Brothers use clip-on mics, and other bands play through external mics. Different strokes...
    Agreed. I was thinking of specific situations where it's not only loud but the crowd isn't necessarily there for the music and are drinking. Personally, I'll do whatever I can to remain mic-ed. But if it's really difficult to pull off and I'm pretty sure the crowd woudn't notice or care, i'm with Tim.

    BTW, I just called the music store about the Shure Beta181, a side-addressed small diaphragm that sounds like it might be a good bet for big volume situation. It's not in stock yet but I'll give a report when I get it.

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    You got a lot of good advice already. Basically your problem is your condenser is picking up surrounding sound and feeding back. You probably don't need to buy another mandolin (unless you want one! LOL) just put an internal pickup in your mandolin with an endpin jack and run it straight into the board.

    I use a condenser mic on stage sometimes but so is everyone else. Lot's of good pickups out there I like K&K Twin and Mcintyre Feather.

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    I think FP is quite correct to point out that we're all talking about struggling under the most difficult conditions. I'm sure no one would want a less experienced player to read this and think that tone never matters. Every situation we face has its own difficulties. From the recording studio to the loud, cramped bar stage, every scenario has its own challenges. But it's equally important to realize that even top-name celebrities like the Punch Brothers would struggle just as much as anyone were you to take away their world-class support and force them into a space smaller than the average prison cell.
    Last edited by Tim2723; Nov-09-2010 at 4:46am.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    "But it's equally important to realize that even top-name celebrities like the Punch Brothers would struggle just as much as anyone were you to take away their world-class support and force them into a space smaller than the average prison cell."

    Not so sure about that.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    "But it's equally important to realize that even top-name celebrities like the Punch Brothers would struggle just as much as anyone were you to take away their world-class support and force them into a space smaller than the average prison cell."

    Not so sure about that.
    I'm leaning towards agreeing with Dagger on that one. I've told this before, but it is appropriate. A couple of years ago we had John Jorgenson and his group. Halfway through the first set, the sound system blows up. No one knew it at the time, but a car went into a telephone pole a mile up the road (driver OK). John never missed a beat. Ever the gentleman and professional, he just shrugged and said, "well, let's go acoustic." Sounded fantastic, the band never missed a beat without monitors, the audience missed nothing without the PA. Made them listen even more carefully, if anything.

    They may not like it as much, but the good ones get it done under any and every circumstance.

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    I've been struggling with this for a while now...

    Last weekend it was a really noisy pub yet again...

    So I plugged in my McIntyre feather pick up and put it through an LR Baggs Paracoustic DI box. Knocked back the treble and increased the bass and mid on the DI.

    Got a pretty good sound and was really loud and no sign of feed back at all...

    Still prefer a mic but it's a good compromise.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    "Got a pretty good sound and was really loud and no sign of feed back at all..."

    And doesn't that feel good?
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    I'm leaning towards agreeing with Dagger on that one. I've told this before, but it is appropriate. A couple of years ago we had John Jorgenson and his group. Halfway through the first set, the sound system blows up. No one knew it at the time, but a car went into a telephone pole a mile up the road (driver OK). John never missed a beat. Ever the gentleman and professional, he just shrugged and said, "well, let's go acoustic." Sounded fantastic, the band never missed a beat without monitors, the audience missed nothing without the PA. Made them listen even more carefully, if anything.

    They may not like it as much, but the good ones get it done under any and every circumstance.
    That's actually sort of the opposite of what we're talking about, but point well made. But the thing of it is this, they got through with flying colors in a difficult situation. They did what they had to do to succeed, even if everything wasn't perfect. I'm sure that if they had to struggle like that for every show they would make some accommodation to make things better for themselves. It's not that we have to struggle sometimes, it's what we're able to do to make it work that counts.

    I didn't mean that the Punch Brothers wouldn't make great music, but under those difficult conditions they would have to deal with the same feedback issues from their microphones that we all do. And if they had to do it by themselves while trying to play it would be doubly difficult as it is for any of us. Their equipment doesn't break the laws of physics, and if Mr. Thile's mandolin mic were two feet in front of a screaming amplifier, he would have to work that problem. I'm sure he would do it admirably, but the problem would be no different for him than it is for anyone.

    I don't know whether I can agree with David or not, as he didn't explain himself. If he meant that top pros would muddle through and succeed, then yes. If he meant that a celebrity's microphone wouldn't feedback in loud, tight quarters with nothing to help prevent it, then I would disagree.

    The issue at hand is preventing feedback in problem conditions. If you put a microphone too close to its speaker and turn the volume up enough, it feeds back. It doesn't matter how famous the person is who's using it or how brilliantly they play. It's just a microphone and a speaker. Using a pickup is a compromise that will help a lot. Using an instrument design like the Godin or Ovation will help even more. The compromises are different, but that's what compromises are about. That's all.
    Last edited by Tim2723; Nov-09-2010 at 10:45am.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    What I mean is essentially that experience shows through when things are less than ideal.

    The old trooper would realise that adjustments had to be made in terms of the set-up, so speakers would be moved, a different approach might be made to how microphones were used, they might even alter their set list to suit.

    I've seen good musicians crammed onto tiny stages. They can usually handle it. They have almost certainly played in much worse situations, and probably had to set up the sound themselves sometimes. That's par for the course for lots of bands.

    Less experienced performers might not have the ability to adapt in the same way. The laws of physics aren't really the issue. Resourcefulness and adaptabilty do tend to come with experience.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Precisely. I see no disagreement between us. We're saying the same thing in slightly different ways. One of the things an old trooper might do would be to use a pickup in some cases, or even a different mandolin.

    The laws of physics do come into play though, since even the most experienced player must obey them. It's just that with time and practice we get better at it.
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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Pickups are sometimes an unfortunate necessity.

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    True enough. And sometimes they're the desired state.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    Sound is very important ! there really should be a category just for this issue .

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    Default Re: how do I mic in a large loud band?

    I've thought that myself many times.
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