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  1. #1
    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Sight reading ideas

    In another post, someone recommending reading fiddle tunes (or other repertoire) for sight-reading.

    While I think this is a good idea in general, I would not recommend it for beginning readers. Primarily because it would be hard to figure out which will be "easy" to read, and which would be "difficult".

    so, any ideas on what a mandolin focused sight-reading book might look like?

    My thoughts from standard / generic sight reading pedagogy:

    Rhythmic progression
    ::: whole notes down to 16ths notes in increasing levels of difficulty / speed
    ::: time signatures from easy to complex (4/4 6/8 ... 13/16... :-) )
    ::: polyrhythms and whatever crazy stuff you want to lead up to

    Scales
    ::: Start from G major / G min work through the circle of 5ths
    ::: Modal 'keys'
    ::: non standard scales

    Chords
    ::: 2 finger chords - open chords - closed chords - chop chords???
    ::: Arpeggios of various configurations
    ::: progressions I IV V progressions up to complex jazz arrangements (not to forget standard old time / bluegrass / celtic / tradition of choice)


    A progressive resource of sight reading material can be something you work on your whole career. Having a list of sight reading music that focuses on various "problems" would be nice. If you are working on a particular progression, or struggling with arpeggios or what not.

    Then there are mandolin specific issues (chop chords, idiomatic solo material, chord melodies).

    Thoughts?
    C

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    As a guy with more than 1 music book, that looks like a lot more than one music book.

    And I don't think fiddle tunes are hard to discern difficulty in reading. Cole's 1000 Fiddle tunes has many tunes recognizable as 'easy', and many easily recognized as 'hard' (like strathspeys). Number of notes, timing including syncopation and fingerings are giveaways.

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    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    not sure how many books it would be. I suppose it depends on how far you want to take it.

    If you are going towards fiddle tunes, you can leave out compound time signatures and obscure polyrhythms. Not to mention strange keys and chords....

    I wonder if you could level them such that you could say "if you want to work on fiddle tunes, stop here and start sight reading there"

    On the other hand, I prefer my sight reading exercises to be focused on technique. If I wan't to sight read "real tunes" I'd just do that.

    C

  4. #4
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Cassis Harvey has many books on technique for violin, all in standard notation, including positional studies and fingering challenges. Obviously transferable to mandolin.
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl23 View Post
    ... any ideas on what a mandolin focused sight-reading book might look like?
    Even before I finished reading the list of possible topics, my reaction was that most of those, for good but maybe not exhaustive coverage, could be a book on their own.

    As something of an informal "teacher" recently (that is, w/ absolutely no certification or externally-recognized qualification), I've come to realize that such books need to come in several varieties: one for the absolute beginner, maybe one for the musician new to the instrument but who has some base of musical knowledge, and one or many for the advanced student looking to pursue specific topics. Attempting to cover all of those in one swipe may well lead to frustration and/or loss of interest.

    As good examples of "generalist" texts, that are not genre-specific AND that treat beginners gently without insulting (or boring too much) the more accomplished, I'd look at Don Julin's "Mandolin for Dummies", and at the 3-book series "The Complete Mandolin Method" (beginner, intermediate, & advanced), the first two by Greg Horne, the last by Wayne Fugate. Each nicely touches on needed subjects in not-too-exhaustive depth before filling in other knowledge that's needed before real advancement can occur. In their totality, they do address "sight reading", or at least assume that's part of why you're reading them, even if not as an independently-specified subject.

    I guess what I'm thinking is that a =specific= sight-reading book necessarily has to be aimed a students who are somewhat beyond the pure beginner stage.
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't understand why you would want to learn how to sight read. I came from a classical background and part of what excites me about playing the mandolin is moving away from the page. What would you gain by becoming a talented sight reader?

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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by dadsaster View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't understand why you would want to learn how to sight read. I came from a classical background and part of what excites me about playing the mandolin is moving away from the page. What would you gain by becoming a talented sight reader?
    The ability to read classical mandolin pieces?

    :-)

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    Registered User Carl23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    -Ed

    great points. I've seen a "jazz" sight reading book, it advertised as sight reading book to be read over various progressions.

    Apparently it was just a list of "appropriate" notes over the chords. I would be cool to have a sight reading book like described (if not the reality)

    I have the "complete MM" books. I really like them, but they are instructional... not so much sight reading. I do like the structure he used though.

    When I was in college, I had a sight-reading book that I needed for singing. Great for hearing the music. also translated to most instruments that I've played.

    random thoughts.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    I agree with Bill that most of what we call "fiddle tunes" here are easy to play (once familiar with the style) and easy to sight-read, with just a few exceptions. Almost all are in the "easy" keys with just one or a few sharps, and easy to play in first position.

    For example, here's one good source for Irish tunes: "Dow’s 50 (Actually 60) Essential Tunes" (PDF file link).

    I'm familiar with most of those tunes, and I don't think any are especially difficult to play or sight read. It's mainly a question of knowing the right rhythm feel for each dance type, which you get by listening to good recorded examples before tackling the sheet music.

    What I'd consider difficult fiddle tunes are the occasional things with odd syncopation like Catharsis or the Tolka Polka, or show-off tunes like Tam Lin or Devil's Dream. Tunes like that usually don't show up on introductory fiddle tune lists like the one above.

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    Registered User Tom Wright's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Seems to me that exercises in sight-reading require a teacher to both force your pace and also check errors. Aside from that, exercise material should be taken from the genre. As a classical player that others call a good sight-reader I will say reading jazz charts is not automatically easy, and I have improved a lot in the last few years by having to learn various new genre tunes, like choro and jazz. Classical experience helps but is not sufficient.

    The tunes we play fpr English Country Dance and contra dancing cover a wide range of meter, key, speed, and style. The Portland collections for contra or the Barnes volumes for English would be great for playing through.

    While we play by ear as we play through multiple times, improvising over the changes, it’s really convenient to be able to just read the tune. I can’t imagine memorizing thousands of fiddle, english, jazz, or choro tunes. I don’t need to, because I can bring all of them in my tablet. I know a lot of tunes by heart but it is only a tiny fraction of what exists. A caller can spring a new tune in us at a dance, and we can just play it.

    Every tune you learn helps you learn the next one, and the fastest input is print.
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    I agree with what has been said about fiddle tunes and Dow's lists for ITM. It is pretty easy to see what might be a bit more difficult. I think the key to reading standard notation is to do as much of it as you can. It is like learning any language, the more you use it, the easier it gets.

    Rather than re-invent the wheel, check what is out there. Debra Chen's Reading Standard Notation for the Tab Addicted Mandolinist is a really good resource. You don't even have to know how to read tab, and it is great for a beginner. She includes exercises for recognizing open string notes, patterns in fifths and so forth so you can leverage that in your reading.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by dadsaster View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't understand why you would want to learn how to sight read. I came from a classical background and part of what excites me about playing the mandolin is moving away from the page. What would you gain by becoming a talented sight reader?
    Okay, the dots vs. ear subject. At the risk of igniting old flames, here's how I think of it. Sorry for the length, but it's a big subject.

    First, I hear where you're coming from, I was an ear-learner for most of my life on fretted instruments until the last few years. Well, except for 6 years reading piano music as a child and I don't think that counts. I still think learning by ear should be a primary goal, at least for the "folk" music formats like Blues, Bluegrass, and the various "Celtic" genres (which is mostly what I play). Ear learning should be the ONLY goal if you're playing something like Blues (IMO), where I don't think sheet music helps at all, unless you're getting into advanced Jazz-based Blues.

    However, I still find reading useful, now that I've fallen down the rabbit hole of Irish/Scottish traditional music. I'm not a fast sight reader, more of a hunt-and-peck approach. My fiddler S.O. can sight-read a tune she's never known before, close to full tempo. I can't do that, but I still find it helpful to shortcut learning a new tune. Sheet music also keeps me "honest" because I sometimes fill in notes that aren't there, just based on familiarity with the genre. Referring back to the sheet music setting of a tune will correct that.

    Sheet music also gives me a reference for later on, collected in a binder. I "know" over a hundred Irish or Scottish tunes... in the sense that I can play along from memory at a session if someone else starts them. And I can start a few dozen tunes myself from memory, my stronger tune sets. That's essential for participating in higher-end Irish and Scottish sessions where sheet music isn't normally present.

    But sometimes tunes fall off the back end of the 'ol memory, and looking them up in a binder at home is faster than finding a recording. Especially when I may have many different recordings by different artists of the same tune, and I want the actual setting I learned. Unlike Classical music which is usually one setting frozen in amber, "folk" formats like fiddle tunes can drift over time and multiply into many different settings of the same tune. With sheet music, I can at least refer back to the particular setting I learned; the one played in local sessions, if I need a refresher.

    I still think of myself as primarily an ear learner, because getting the notes from the dots are just the beginning in a genre like Irish trad. Then comes rhythm pulse, ornaments, everything that makes it sound "Irish." It's just a useful tool to help a little in learning new tunes or refreshing old ones. It doesn't have to be either-or. You can mix and match ear learning and reading, to suit whatever you're trying to accomplish.

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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by dadsaster View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't understand why you would want to learn how to sight read. I came from a classical background and part of what excites me about playing the mandolin is moving away from the page. What would you gain by becoming a talented sight reader?
    You gain the ability to play music that you don't have a recording of. This includes classical mandolin music, but also all kinds of music that was not originally written for mandolin: fiddle tunes, Bach Minuets, swing standards, rags, classical piano music, etc.

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    Registered User Kay Kirkpatrick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    I use my Evelyn's Big Book for Mandolin (she now has 3 out) for sight-reading practice. The tunes range from simple signature/rhythm to more challenging, so you can pick what you want to read. A nice benefit of her books is nearly all the tunes are in 3-parts, and you can play or sight-read each part to any particular tune. She also has a good variety of tune styles.

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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Leonard View Post
    Debra Chen's Reading Standard Notation for the Tab Addicted Mandolinist
    Best book title EVER!

    will have to look that one up.

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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    I really do not mean to start the "dots vs ears" debate (I like the term)

    I've seen this a gazillion times over in the drum-set world.

    I have been using the fiddle players handbook for sight-reading. I would really rather have something that is graduated... either a listing of tunes in order of difficulty (as measured in my OP) or something non-tune oriented.

    [as an aside, if you know of a good resource of tunes listed by difficulty, I'd love to see it!]

    One of the nice things about not reading literature is that you can't "cheat" by knowing the style. If you don't know what to expect you REALLY need to read.

    For myself, it is less about learning how to read, and more about getting my fingers to do what I'm thinking. So I guess that is a big part of my hesitation in reading literature.

    The sight reading book that I used to have had a great section on non-tonal music. Talk about not being able to cheat!!!

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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Maybe a method book would be the way to go as they tend to start with baby step tunes and such. I agree that fiddle tunes are good...something like Soldiers Joy, Cluck Old Hen, Boil them Cabbage Down, etc.

    Sight reading is a fabulous skill to have, when I was in high school and college bands we went to state competitions and participated in sight reading contests...now, WHERE is that medal...

    Anyway...I have a friend fairly new to the mando and she works so not much time to practice but she has become a very skilled sight reader, we can put any piece of music (ok, not some complicated classical thing) in front of her when we play together...its particularly handy for harmony.

    So, for a beginning reader I'd get a method book and check out anything online, lots of free stuff out there.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    As usual with these discussions, I feel the need to define what the OP means by sight reading. AFAIK sight reading is the ability to play or perform pieces written in standard notation on an instrument without preparation and up to performance speed. I think of it as more of a goal but not (for me) particularly necessary. I can read most medium difficult classical pieces enough for rehearsal but am not at the point of being able to sight read. Some folks here tend to define sight reading as juts the ability to read notation. To me that is the ability to read notation.

    In any case, many of the standard violin method books would be fine for reading etudes and fine tuning your reading. I also found Essential Elements for Strings to be quite useful for scales and arpeggios.

    I would suggest also the Pettine, Calace and Bickford methods for mandolin as well as Goichberg's 35 Progressive Etudes for Mandolin (if you can find a copy. Also Marilynn Mair's books, The 100 – Techniques & Exercises for Mandolinists and The Complete Mandolinist. The latter has many etudes and exercises from violin pedagogy.

    I also found that the more I read the better I get. It also helps, assuming you are not working with a teacher, to find one or more musical partners to play with. In addition, it is very good to work wtith a metronome. I know weare talking about reading but it is all connected.
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    As usual with these discussions, I feel the need to define what the OP means by sight reading. AFAIK sight reading is the ability to play or perform pieces written in standard notation on an instrument without preparation and up to performance speed. I think of it as more of a goal but not (for me) particularly necessary.
    While I can see your point here... I actually have a different goal with studying sight reading.

    I find sight reading a great way to practice technique.
    I would love to have a set of sight reading exercises that focused on arpeggios.
    While I could work on tunes with arpeggiation (the Bach comes to mind of course) I already have more than I can work on with the pieces that I am trying to get up to performance level.

    I would like to use sight reading as a "warm up" to actual work. It gets me mentally and physically prepared.

    "Sight reading" by itself is an interesting term. As you said, it can be used practically to increase your learning speed on materials.

    It can also be used to deepen your relationship with your instrument. Improve your technique, your speed and a million other details.

    The practical application is for playing music, but there are a million details in playing music that can be worked on in a million ways.

    And thanks for the book recommendations!

    Carl

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    As usual with these discussions, I feel the need to define what the OP means by sight reading. AFAIK sight reading is the ability to play or perform pieces written in standard notation on an instrument without preparation and up to performance speed. I think of it as more of a goal but not (for me) particularly necessary. I can read most medium difficult classical pieces enough for rehearsal but am not at the point of being able to sight read. Some folks here tend to define sight reading as juts the ability to read notation. To me that is the ability to read notation.
    You may be right in a technical sense, but there are some gray areas here. As I mentioned above, my S.O. can sight read something she's never seen before (a "fiddle tune" anyway) at something close to tempo. I can't do that.

    However, if I'm refreshing a tune I learned a while ago but haven't played in a while and I need a reminder, I can go into one of my binders and read through the tune at tempo. It may not fit the standard definitions or reading unfamiliar material at tempo, and I do agree there should be a special term for that. But it sure feels like sight reading when I'm doing this. Maybe it's "sight-plus-memory reading" in this case.

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    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Okay, the dots vs. ear subject. At the risk of igniting old flames, here's how I think of it. Sorry for the length, but it's a big subject.
    What a lot of this aspiration to something which would be better called "sight playing" … somebody is trained to play the "dots' on the paper without knowing what is going to come out sonically. It's a robotic - punch card in, audible notes out - function.

    The real deal is NOT dots/eyes vs ears but a trained synesthesia between eye and ear. It's also called "sightsinging", which erroneously tends to imply "vocal notational training (only) for singers". Real sightreading means you can open a book of tunes, and without an instrument in hand, or even vocalizing, hear in you mind the tune as your eye scans the page.

    Unfortunately, even in the classical realm, "sightsinging" is something the player/student only gets introduces to in college, instead of at the outset of their musical training. At least with many of the non-notation way of learning in a lot of the world traditions, one gets this through the aural and oral method of inputting tunes, rhtyhms, scales etc. etc. The kid sings the drum rhythms with vocal mnemonics which mimic the various drum sounds even before he/she ever gets an instrument to beat on. The instruction book is put into the mind before working on the physical requirements of playing a/the instrument.

    You want to put the eye and ear together. Start using sol-feg. At first you may have to write the syllables above the notation until you internalize the syllables for various scale tones. Play the tune you are reading, and sing the tones as syllables as you do so. This is neurologically demanding - you have to see/interpret things visually, play the notes on an instrument, and vocalize at the same time. The latter means you are HEARING the pitches - if you can't sing it you can't play it. Once you get past writing down the syllables, your mind has to "name" what it is seeing on the page in addition to doing the rest.

    Doing sol-feg will give you plenty of "theory training" in the process. You won't need to "study" what tones make up various chords if you've got Do-Mi-So-Te-ri in your ear/head. (That is the lyric a dominant7sharp9 chord btw.)

    Most people will reject this as too much irrelevant work, but the fact is that IF you can link the ear and the hand, and the logical understanding (theory) together...(.and also factor in the eyes), you will be MILES AHEAD IN THE LONG RUN.

    I would recommend looking into the Kodaly Method if you need some systematic exercises and ideas.

    Niles H
    Last edited by mandocrucian; Dec-13-2018 at 4:19pm.

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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    I don't understand how someone wouldn't be able to tell if printed fiddle music is too hard to sight read. If you try to play it and it's too hard, then it's too hard. That's always been my method.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    As usual, Niles, your post is clear and to the point and covers a different but important perspective. Excellent and thanks!
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Niles is very correct with this. It took me until I started focusing on the mandolin to understand this. And this is where the journey will often get interesting. While I am able to sight read and play the notes, it's the timing that I still have to work on. Especially things like polskas, Finnish tango and certain hambo rhythms.

    We often sight read tunes that one of the members of our band wants to try. Sometimes we'll just go by ear, but both our leader (Ralph Tuttila) and our fiddler/singer have excellent collections of Finnish music. Really helps me as most of the time I haven't heard the tune before we try it out.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sight reading ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Platt View Post
    Niles is very correct with this. It took me until I started focusing on the mandolin to understand this. And this is where the journey will often get interesting. While I am able to sight read and play the notes, it's the timing that I still have to work on. Especially things like polskas, Finnish tango and certain hambo rhythms.

    We often sight read tunes that one of the members of our band wants to try. Sometimes we'll just go by ear, but both our leader (Ralph Tuttila) and our fiddler/singer have excellent collections of Finnish music. Really helps me as most of the time I haven't heard the tune before we try it out.
    The music you are talking about and some other genres have subtleties that cannot really be transcribed into notation. In those cases, it is necessary to supplement the actual notation with intense listening. I know what I attempt to play Swedish or Québécois tunes the rhythms are not inherent in the sheet music. Same is even true in Irish and old time music. There is no way to get the nuances no mater how good a reader you may be.

    In addition, there are some genres like blues where the actual intonations are different. That is why a classically trained musician can play the notes but would miss the nuances if that is all they would rely on.
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