Disgusted with Tuning Machines

**adlerburg** · Nov-14-2010, 10:48pm

Hi,
I play a Weber Fern and love the sound, playability.... but am totally disappointed in the Grover Tuners that it came with. These are rickety and feel cheap. Not at all what one would expect from an instrument retailing at over $6k. On my guitars, there are many options for smooth, accurate tuners (Gotohs, Waverlys, etc), but for Mando is the only choice to spend another $500 for Waverly tuners? And with that, do they feel better than the stock ones? Is there an alternative? I've read that Gotohs are good for guitar, but not great for Mando. What options are there for a smooth, accurate tuner for an F Mando please?
Thanks.
Mick

**Paul Hostetter** · Nov-15-2010, 2:03am

Please search the archives for a LOT of threads addressing your situation. No sense in repeating all of that now.

**Ivan Kelsall** · Nov-15-2010, 2:20am

Have a good look & read of Frank Ford's 'tuner tips' on his Frets.com website & apply. I have to say that the Tuners on my Weber "Fern" were always fine,but 15 minutes of adjusting in accordance with the info. on Frank's site, has made them as smooth as silk. With due respect to your personal feelings,Grover tuners are used by many builders & are far from cheap & rickety - or shouldn't be. You could always contact Weber & advise them of your displeasure with the tuners. Weber are ace to deal with & if they can get you sorted out they will,& you shouldn't have to fork out $500 for new tuners - good luck,
Ivan

**Big Joe** · Nov-15-2010, 7:05am

Grover tuners are a fine tuner. If you are having issues it is likely because of the fit or adjustments of the tuners, or the nut or saddle. It would make no difference what tuners you had the problems would likely be there. These issues are part of having your instrument set up for the guage of strings you use. Rarely is the problem the tuners. The result of other issues is the tuners seem to be the problem. I personally like the Grover tuners better than anything else on the market today. There are some other fine ones, and a brand I do not like at all. However, even spending 500 or 600 dollars more for a set of tuners would not eliminate most tuning issues because they are rarely the tuner itself.

**stubhead** · Nov-15-2010, 11:52am

http://www.frets.com/fretspages/Musi...geartune1.html

There are differing grades of Grover tuners, now that they're made in Korea. Maybe Weber bought the wrong ones.... the sealed "Grover tuners" you see on $300 electric guitars are a far cry from the old, U.S. - made Rotomatics, that's for sure. Many tuner companies like Ping make several different grades of tuners, just like Gibson or Fender or Godin makes different grades of guitars (in different places too).

The whole "traditional" thing seems odd to me, as an old rocker I remember taking those nasty Kluson tuners OFF of Gibson guitars and replacing them with good Schallers or Grovers - now they make bushings so that you can change them BACK to nasty Klusons because it's "traditional." Sealed tuners work better than the plate tuners, but we're stuck with "tradition", it seems.

**nickster60** · Nov-15-2010, 11:57am

Contact Weber they are great folks to deal with.

**Rob Gerety** · Nov-15-2010, 12:32pm

Originally Posted by stubhead

http://www.frets.com/fretspages/Musi...geartune1.htmlSealed tuners work better than the plate tuners, but we're stuck with "tradition", it seems.

With all do respect I can't agree with this comment at all. The open back (or as you describe them - "plate" or "traditional" tuners) available today are EXCELLENT tuners. I agree with Joe - it is very unlikely that problems the OP is having are related to the tuners themselves.

**mandroid** · Nov-15-2010, 2:37pm

Take up a wind instrument?

**Paul Hostetter** · Nov-15-2010, 2:42pm

Or just sing!

**Tom Wright** · Nov-15-2010, 3:40pm

Separate tuners is an extra alignment job which explains why the 4-on-a-strap style was popular. Now it is an expected look, I think.

Tom Buchanan goes straight to separate Schaller's for his 10-string mandolins, citterns, and bouzoukis. My Ryder 5-string has separate Gotoh's. But I have no complaint about the Grovers on my Weber, except one was missing a retaining screw for the button. Joan put a couple screws in a envelope in response to a phone call, no charge, and I didn't even buy it from them.

**George R. Lane** · Nov-15-2010, 3:55pm

Mick,
I have Grover 309's on my Yellowstone and they work smoothly. Call Cameron or Bruce and tell them of your problem, they will make it right.

**adlerburg** · Nov-15-2010, 4:19pm

Originally Posted by Paul Hostetter

Please search the archives for a LOT of threads addressing your situation. No sense in repeating all of that now.

I've searched thoroughly and although there was plenty of posts re:tuners and set up, I did not find the answer I needed.. which is why I posted here. Thank you to all who have answered me, and for all the advice. I'm not a novice as it relates to setup, so I did check for any binding at the nut and bridge.. they seem fine. I guess I was looking for the smooth tuning as in top guitar tuners like gotoh or waverly open back tuners. I have them on my Martins, and it is night and day in smoothness to these. I have spoken with Bruce and he assured me they would loosen and smooth out with some age. I guess that's fine, but still different from guitar tuners that I've installed that were smooth as silk and accurate right out of the gate. I put a small bit of graphite on the gears and worms, then put a winder end on a drill and cycled the tuner a hundred or so rotations back and forth. I'm surprised to see that so many not only don't have this issue, but have high praise for these Grovers. That being the case, I have to think it's local to me... be it tuner or setup.. and not global to Grover tuners.... Thanks guys.

**delsbrother** · Nov-15-2010, 4:45pm

I think the threads Paul is referring to deal with the alignment of the tuners' string posts with the holes drilled in the peghead (I'm sure someone more versed than I am can post links). Any slop/misalignment here will cause binding and poor performance.

**mandroid** · Nov-15-2010, 4:53pm

I got a 3rd hand Mix with retrofitted Waverlys , they worked really badly
because they had a binding due to hole spacing interference .

I went downmarket , and got some Stew Mac Elites, put them on, instead,
they were more tolerant of the minor spacing discrepancies, and have been fine.

**MikeEdgerton** · Nov-15-2010, 7:17pm

I'd visit Paul Hostetter's tuner page. It's here.

**Paul Hostetter** · Nov-15-2010, 7:35pm

Indeed, Mike. It's not about the machines OR the makers of the instrument—neither of whom I'd think about much—it's got to be something much simpler, like screw adjustment, lubrication, nut slots binding, whatever.

Here we are, having this thread all over again.

**MANNDOLINS** · Nov-15-2010, 8:02pm

Grover had some issues with some of the early 309's...I had a couple sets that had almost a quarter turn of slack on a few keys...they've since re-tooled and made them right...the newer ones are really smooth...you may have been lucky enough to get one of the old sets...they are great about replacing them ...or Weber should do it for you.

**adlerburg** · Nov-15-2010, 11:36pm

Originally Posted by MANNDOLINS

Grover had some issues with some of the early 309's...I had a couple sets that had almost a quarter turn of slack on a few keys...they've since re-tooled and made them right...the newer ones are really smooth...you may have been lucky enough to get one of the old sets...they are great about replacing them ...or Weber should do it for you.

There is a lot of slack in a couple of the machines... How can I tell if they are the 309's? There's nothing stamped anywhere... no name, number etc. The only way I know they are Grovers is that Bruce told me so when I was discussing the issue with him.
Thanks!

**Ivan Kelsall** · Nov-16-2010, 3:31am

Do visit Frets.com's or Paul Hostetter's page & try a set up etc.,you've nothing to loose & as in my case,it worked like a charm,
Ivan

**Rob Gerety** · Nov-16-2010, 5:17am

You know, I'm new to the mandolin world - and I could be wrong about this - but I think frustration with tuners is a common thing for folks like me (and maybe the OP?) who come to mandolin after years of playing guitar with great tuners. Bottom line - mandolins are a pain in the butt to tune. Fussy as heck. The slightest misalignment and they will stick and ping and generally wreak havoc.

Having said that, after more than a year of frustration with the 1916 Handel tuners on my A4, (very stiff), Paul H. worked his magic last week and turned them into fabulous smooth working tuners. Thanks for that Paul - they are working like a charm now. So, like anything else mandolin related, it seems you just have to get everything working on all cylinders and the smallest little thing that is out of whack will cause all sorts of problems.

**Tim2723** · Nov-16-2010, 6:46am

Originally Posted by Rob Gerety

...Bottom line - mandolins are a pain in the butt to tune. Fussy as heck...you just have to get everything working on all cylinders and the smallest little thing that is out of whack will cause all sorts of problems.

That is one of the best definitions of the mandolin yet.

**yankees1** · Nov-16-2010, 7:43am

Alessi ! This is what I am having installed on my new Mowry A Oval !

**MikeEdgerton** · Nov-16-2010, 7:57am

I must be the luckiest guy in the world. After playing guitar for 40 some years I started playing mandolin. The only tuners I've ever had issues with were on 70 and 80 year old mandolins and simply servicing them resolved the issue. I'll note that in many years of dealing with vintage guitars and banjos I had the occasional stiff tuners there as well and simply servicing them resolved their issues as well. It's a mechanical item. Now, with that said I would have sent a new instrument that had problems in for service. I have Grovers on my two main instruments right now, both came to me fine. This isn't an epidemic.

**Big Joe** · Nov-16-2010, 11:10am

Mandolin tuners are for the most part far more reliable than most guitar tuners. They seem to last longer and pose less issues that are tuner wear related than guitars do. The only issue on any instrument is the really cheap instruments with gears made from pot metal or plastic. They are junk no matter who made them. However, most of us are not playing guitars or mandolins with those cheap tuners. Tuners are really pretty reasonable priced (except Waverly's) and function quite well. Closed back tuners are not as reliable as quality open back tuners either. The way they are treated is far more important than the kind of back they have. Tuners can fail after time. They are moving parts. The gears in watches and cars fail at times as well. It really amazes me that there are not more actual tuner failures.

If you purchased your mandolin new, take it to the dealer and see if he can take care of the issue for you. He should be able to deal with the problem and even send it back to Weber should it need that. If you bought it used, then your dealer may be willing to help. If not, get it to a luthier to check it out and see what the issue may be. Any mandolin needs a great setup when it comes from the factory and that may resolve the issue for you. Let them know of the problem and they can usually isolate the issue quite fast. Just remember, a mandolin is not a guitar and just because one is good at setting up guitars does mean they are good with mandolins. Two different instruments completely.