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Thread: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

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    Default Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Hi,

    I need a matching transformer for a Schertler Dyn-M pickup, one of those XLR-to-telephone jack converters. I wonder if they all 'sound the same', or if any one has found a particular brand or model that seems to work really well with a Schertler.

    Thanks, Harry
    "Oh, no, Sweatheart, I've had this mando a long time!
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  2. #2
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Your post prompts me to ask why you might need one. Hopefully it doesn't mean you are thinking of plugging your wonderfully sensitive Schertler investment into a guitar amp. If you must use an amp, use one that comes with a mic input, like a Roland or a Loudbox acoustic. Schertlers are dynamic microphones, not pickups, not transducers. They do their job best when plugged into a PA.
    Explore some of my published music here.

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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Nollman View Post
    Your post prompts me to ask why you might need one. Hopefully it doesn't mean you are thinking of plugging your wonderfully sensitive Schertler investment into a guitar amp. If you must use an amp, use one that comes with a mic input, like a Roland or a Loudbox acoustic. Schertlers are dynamic microphones, not pickups, not transducers. They do their job best when plugged into a PA.
    So, Jim, I'll put you down for 'no opinion' on the transformer question?
    "Oh, no, Sweatheart, I've had this mando a long time!
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    If you have test equipment buy all you can find and do science on them,and write up your data analysis

    Subjective , OTOH, I got one with a switch on it to bypass the transformer if all you really need
    is to short the cold and ground together to plug into a TR 1/4'' jack, It also has a 6'' length of cable
    so there is not so much leverage on the jack in the amp as there is by having the plug in the end of the transformer . such as this one : Audio Technica is a known brand http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...umber=242-4776
    could just be made by taking the low bid contract and labeled..
    Cannot say it's best, as I only have this one. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=240-398

    Shure makes one of their own, It costs much more , if that is your favorite indication of 'Best',
    then that may be more satisfying to you..
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    In addition, if you know what values you need for the primary and secondary windings of the transformer, you can always buy
    that transformer and put it in a metal box and put panel jacks in the box make one of your own.

    then you may have a better idea about the source of the actual transformer part of the components used.
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Mr. 'droid,

    Thanks, for the info on primary & secondary windings. That's certainly a perspective I hadn't considered.

    Before I bought a Schertler, I looked at a lot of Cafe threads on the subject. It seemed like one of those threads mentioned going through a lot of transformers until the 'right one' was found. I did a search last night under 'Schertler transformer', before I posted this topic, but couldn't find the thread after 30 minutes of looking.

    Again, thanks for your interest.

    Harry
    "Oh, no, Sweatheart, I've had this mando a long time!
    Don't you.....recognize the case?"

  7. #7
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Well, you can always get a Schertler preamp.
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    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Do you need a transformer or just an adapter? Why?
    Rob G.
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gerety View Post
    Do you need a transformer or just an adapter? Why?
    When I used to have a Rock Band, we called transformers 'adapters'. Now that I have an Old Guy Band we call adapters 'transformers'.

    As to why I need a transformer/adapter? Well, because you're not always playing into a PA (or a good PA, with a good soundman in charge). Sometimes you play into an amp, somebody else's amp, even, or you don't play. As well, those amps might not have a decent XLR input, or decent EQ on the channel with the XLR input. Also, a lot of DI/preamp boxes like the Avalon U5 or the Baggs Para DI or Venue don't have an XLR input.

    I played out with a Schertler-equipped mando a month ago. Mando w/Schertler>adapter>Para DI with previously set EQ>Para DI XLR out>XLR cable>snake>Mixing Board. I had maybe 40 seconds to get a 'sound' out of my mando with a soundman I'd never seen before. It all worked out fine. I don't know if it would have if I'd let the sound man do the EQ-ing.

    The previously set EQ? I worked it out interfacing the Schertler/Para DI combo with an Allen & Heath MixWiz3 with good floor monitors. The mixer has good preamps plus I pulled some overly thick mid sounds out of the mix with the Para DI. In hind sight, a lot of the EQ issues probably had to do more with poor initial Schertler placement on my mando than anything else, but again, it all worked out.

    Mr. Mando stated that I could always get a Schertler Preamp. This is true. I would prefer a pre- with a phase switch, especially for that kind of money that the Schertler preamps seem to go for.

    Thanks again for the interest, folks. Again, if any one has an opinion about a good selection for a 'transformer', I would appreciate it.

    HH
    "Oh, no, Sweatheart, I've had this mando a long time!
    Don't you.....recognize the case?"

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    seems like since you are feeding a PADI an input anticipating a Piezo source, like their pickups,

    with a 10 mega ohm input impedance ..

    something that is 500 ohm to 50K ohm to feed a Guitar amp input ,
    is still falling far short of a real match.

    a mic preamp in a channel of a sub mixer, which will offer some monitor bus outputs,
    and EFX loops to tap off the signal , and so forth (+ your own headphone amp)
    to feed the house Board has been offered before, as a possible solution.



    Everything I hear sounds like Toneitis, now so I cannot speak of nuances.
    Last edited by mandroid; Nov-24-2010 at 7:09pm.
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry H View Post
    When I used to have a Rock Band, we called transformers 'adapters'. Now that I have an Old Guy Band we call adapters 'transformers'.

    As to why I need a transformer/adapter? Well, because you're not always playing into a PA (or a good PA, with a good soundman in charge). Sometimes you play into an amp, somebody else's amp, even, or you don't play. As well, those amps might not have a decent XLR input, or decent EQ on the channel with the XLR input. Also, a lot of DI/preamp boxes like the Avalon U5 or the Baggs Para DI or Venue don't have an XLR input.

    I played out with a Schertler-equipped mando a month ago. Mando w/Schertler>adapter>Para DI with previously set EQ>Para DI XLR out>XLR cable>snake>Mixing Board. I had maybe 40 seconds to get a 'sound' out of my mando with a soundman I'd never seen before. It all worked out fine. I don't know if it would have if I'd let the sound man do the EQ-ing.

    The previously set EQ? I worked it out interfacing the Schertler/Para DI combo with an Allen & Heath MixWiz3 with good floor monitors. The mixer has good preamps plus I pulled some overly thick mid sounds out of the mix with the Para DI. In hind sight, a lot of the EQ issues probably had to do more with poor initial Schertler placement on my mando than anything else, but again, it all worked out.

    Mr. Mando stated that I could always get a Schertler Preamp. This is true. I would prefer a pre- with a phase switch, especially for that kind of money that the Schertler preamps seem to go for.

    Thanks again for the interest, folks. Again, if any one has an opinion about a good selection for a 'transformer', I would appreciate it.

    HH
    If all you want to do is plug into an amp, all you need is a low-high impedance matcher, which you can get for about $10 at guitar center, or wherever. I've never understood the need to plug what's basically a microphone into a DI. If you want some EQ, you can do better than a para DI.

    The reason DI's dont have an XLR input is because the whole point of DI is just to convert a high impedance signal to a low impedance signal so the signal doesn't degrade over a long cable run.

    I sometimes use a mic preamp - an art tube, which has 4 bands of EQ (2 sweepable), plus some compression.

  12. #12
    music with whales Jim Nollman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    with all due respect, Harry, Mandroid is telling you just a few of the technical reasons why using a guitar amp to amplify an acoustic mandolin with a Schertler is a bit like using a hammer to whack screws into a board. MrMando advices you to give a Schertler preamp a whirl. I'd think you'd do well to consider trading your Schertler for a cheap solid body mandolin.
    Explore some of my published music here.

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Something like a Rolls PM50* taps off a pass thru, so Schertler signal is unchanged,
    the tap off that can be modified.. US made

    * http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...Amp?sku=483853


    Schertler's preamp has a dry pass thru signal too , the second use of that signal
    can feed a powered monitor , and offers some tone tweaking. Swiss made
    so there is currency value differences , another cost.

    In Short, no reason to roller coaster the impedance when It was OK to start with.
    Last edited by mandroid; Nov-24-2010 at 7:19pm.
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    This will split the signal , http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...ter?sku=428712
    1 becomes 2
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    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Ok, my answer to your precise question is the Orchid mic mute switch - it is sort of a custom made thing but not really. If you go to the link below and scroll down and look on the right side near the bottom you will see one. Orchid will make what ever you want. This particular item uses phantom power only - but I bet if you want battery power you could get it. Excellent quality piece of kit. High quality components, first rate stuff, I use it and love it.

    http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/custom_products.htm

    I had a Schertler pre amp and honestly it was way more expensive and had lots of stuff I didn't need and the quality did not compare to the Orchid. Not sure if Orchid would do one with eq capability - I don't see the need - but they might do it if you want it. Shoot them an e mail. You won't be disappointed. Quick shipping to the US too.
    Rob G.
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Fellas,

    I appreciate the input. I know from searches that you guys have hashed a lot of this out before and that some of you have, in effect, started in one place and ended in another. As such, I can see that you're all trying to save me some time and money. I've got the time, but I appreciate the help on the money part a lot!

    I understand a little about the impedance issue that Mandroid is concerned about. I've looked with interest at a lot of the technically oriented posts that foldedpath and mandroid have written. I've seen a lot of the names in Schertler searches before, too, not the least of which are Jim Nollman and Rob Gerety.

    It is certainly true that this is my 'first rodeo' with Schertlers. I've borrowed one from a friend and liked it, so I bought one. Having said that, it ain't my first rodeo with mandos, or mixers, or PA gear in general. A Schertler Dyn-M is a dynamic mic element, I get that. You can pick it up and sing through it if you want to (not my first choice!). I realize it isn't a piezo and I understand (somewhat) the concept that a Para or a Venue or even a U5 may work better with a piezo source than a Schertler.

    Still, the Baggs Para and Venue are what I currently own, outside of my 16 channel mixer. I know how to use the Para fairly well from guitars. Using it with the Schertler helped me get a lot of thick lows and mids out of my mando sound, as I heard it through my mixer without the Baggs, though as I said earlier, the thickness issue may have been caused by improper placement of the Schert'.

    Candidly, I didn't hear a lot of hiss or noise compared to the mic pres on my Allen & Heath board. It didn't feed back, either, though maybe it will later. In the meantime, on the few occasions that I do use an adapter with one of my Baggs DIs, I will do my best to remember to listen for distortion and other troubles.

    Again I appreciate the advice and the concern.

    Harry
    "Oh, no, Sweatheart, I've had this mando a long time!
    Don't you.....recognize the case?"

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    Horton River NWT Rob Gerety's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    One word. Orchid. You'll love it.
    Rob G.
    Vermont

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Exchanging Currency will make UK purchase expensive, But they do make Custom combinations

    Balanced I/O mods on a TR pedal tuner would be nice.
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Okay, fellas, I'm trying to learn from what you've been telling me, and I've been studying up on impedance matching, voltage matching, the 'ten to one' rule, stuff like that (really, I should say that I'm starting to study up on it. It will take a while to sink in).

    I've read that most low impedance mics have an out-put impedance of 150-200 ohms. The Schertlers have an output impedance of 500 ohms, which is considerably higher. Now, my Mix Wiz 3 board's mic inputs have an input impedance of 2Kohms, or 10Kohms if the pad is used.

    So I have some questions:

    1) Does the 'ten to one rule' (lowest possible output impedance and a relatively high input impedance by at least a factor of ten) apply to microphone scenarios?

    2) As mentioned, the Schertler's output impedance is 500 ohms, which blows the '10 to 1 rule' all to hell with my Mix Wiz unless I engage the -20 dB pad. Is that important?

    3) Does anybody know why Schertler's Dyn-M pickups are 500 ohms and not 150 to 200?

    Thanks, HH
    Last edited by Harry H; Nov-26-2010 at 2:33am. Reason: typo
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    Registered User mandowilli's Avatar
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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    The Dyn-M output impedance is 1500 ohms, not 500. The next device should have an impedance 5-10 times higher so you are just fine there. The pad can be used to provide you with more headroom if needed.
    willi

  21. #21

    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    Putting aside the discussion of whether you should do it or not for a moment...

    I've used the Audix T50k impedance matching transformer on several occasions to connect a Schertler DYN into a 1/4" line input, and it sounded fine.

    I needed to go through a stomp-box tuner and a few effects before going to a PA and didn't have a preamp handy. The cost is about $20 and frequency response is 20-20kHz. Handy to have around...



    Here's the product link on the Audix site:

    http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/T50k.shtml

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    Default Re: Best matching transformer for a Schertler

    mandowilli,

    thanks for the 'correct impedance info' of 1500 ohms. I had seen someone else use 500 ohms in a post and thought they were talking about that number for the Schertler impedance. I looked on the Schertler website for the impedance info but missed it, probably because the specifications info was at the bottom of a long, 'scroll down' page. I actually emailed Schertler info for the info and both you and Schertler replied about the same time.

    Right now, I'm trying to wrap my brain around what 1500 ohms means in terms of my mixer's input impedance and also why the Schertler Co. uses a 'medium impedance' ohm rating for their dyn series pickups. One of the things I've read said that one purpose of a medium impedance (500 to 2K ohms) mic is that it can be used with all sorts of input levels; low, medium and high.

    Another note said that 'medium impedance' equipment shouldn't use over 40' of cable. I wonder if that includes the 100' snake.......

    Richfiddler11, thanks for the recommendation on the adapter/transformer. I appreciate it.

    HH
    "Oh, no, Sweatheart, I've had this mando a long time!
    Don't you.....recognize the case?"

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