New Alessi tuning machines

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Here is a little teaser of new tuning machines from my friend Nicolo Alessi.


http://www.alessituningmachines.it/


As always, he's constantly refining and reworking the desings. For those of you who don't know Nicolo, he makes some of the finest machines in the world. He's been working on reducing the weight; the stems of these are of ERGAL, a very strong lightweight aluminum alloy. As always, the workmanship is exceptional, the fit and form flawless, and all of his machines bring a big smile to my face whenever I use them.

If you search the back issues of Mandolin Magazine, you can see some more extensive reviews of his machines that I did last year. Simply put, as a builder and writer, I regularly have many different brands and styles that folks send me for review and use, but when you pick up my personal mandolin, you'll see a set of Alessi machines there by choice and for a good reason....

j.
www.condino.com

[sunburst]

I have one set in the shop now, and I plan to get a set for the next mandolin I make for myself. They're the best I've had my hands on.

[Geoff B]

what's the going price on a set of F's? I'd love to get my hands on a set...

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Price is pretty dependent on how elaborate you want to get with them; since they are custom made, the options are only limited by your imagination. For a custom builder, this opens up huge possibilities. They start out at approx. $350 and then go up.

Nobody in the US stocks them as a regular item so you have to order them direct from Nicolo. LMI does carry his guitar machines, but nothing for mandolin.

'Get yerself some!

j.

[Ivan Kelsall]

One thing to beware of in items using Aluminum along with steel parts is ' Intermetallic or Galvanic corrosion',especially if the parts are subject to moisture (humidity would do it). Quote from an article in the 'Anodising World' Journal - " The most common examples of galvanic corrosion of aluminum alloys are when they are joined to steel or copper and exposed to a wet saline environment.".
You'd need to ask a metallurgist about the exact effect the mixing of the 2 / 3 differing material specifications would bring about. Brass contains Copper,so there could be a double threat to the aluminum baseplate.
I'm not trying to be alarmist,but it IS a well known & documented engineering concern & deserves a degree of thought,
Ivan

[thistle3585]

Ivan that was the first thought that came to my mind. I recently had to cut a bolt off my boat because someone had used an aluminum washer in the connection.

[Marc Berman]

I'll be receiving a set of his tuners at the end of the month. I know that the shafts are "treated" 7075 aluminum. If the treatment is hard anodizing I would think that it would help prevent the corrosion. I've sent a message to Nicolo inquiring about his thoughts on the subject. He's on holiday but when I get a reply I'll post his response.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Marc - Anodising is one way to prevent Galvanic corrosion,providing that it's not subjcted to anything rubbing against it. I can't make the second pic.bigger,but it looks as though the brass gear goes though the base plate. As this turns,it could remove any anodic treatment inside the hole. I'm sure that Mr Alessi has thought about this,but it's maybe worth asking the question,especially as the tuners do seem to be very well put together,
Ivan

[mandroid]

Ergal for the rest of us = 7075 .. 7000 series aluminum alloys include Zinc,
and 7075, has traces of copper,magnesium& chromium..

Closed? yea its August , most of Europe has 4-6 weeks of paid holidays most in August.

[Marc Berman]

Ivan - The base plate is brass. It looks like Nicolo has added a brass base to the shafts. Unless it is a brass bushing. I'm including a larger photo and it looks like the bushing might be sleeved with aluminum.

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Technical merits of the metalurgy discussion aside, probably the main reason I like working with Nicolo is he will make them out of whatever I ask for, in any configuration I ask for, and with a big smile on his face; unlike his main competition, who make very nice machines here in the US, but have historically treated me with a pretty uncooperative and grumpy customer service department whenever I called up and asked for a non production item, even though I've seen the same custom item on other people's instruments.

Every time I ask Nicolo for some crazy idea that I or a customer dreams up, he happily responds and creates a precise, funtional product that usually abounds with fantastic beauty and grace. Everytime I ask for even a slight change or custom configuration from the other guys, I've always been dealt a very unfriendly NO, NO, NO!!!!

I'll also admit that I secretly like the idea of doing business with a fellow who lives within driving distance of the town of Condino ....

j.
www.condino.com

[Ivan Kelsall]

Thanks for that James - As i mentioned, i'm sure Mr Alessi has give plenty of thought to these tuners & they do indeed look good. The mixing of Al.Alloys with other metals can be frought with problems if not properly addressed,
Ivan

[grandcanyonminstrel]

A number of folks have contacted me in the last couple of weeks regarding these new machines. I have not yet had a set in hand, so I just spoke with Nicolo and am having a set made up. As a great example of how nice it is to work with a custom machine maker, I decided to blend a bit of what I've had in the past from him and to make some changes of my own.

I asked for a set of F5 style machines, with the new ERGAL shafts. Why? 1) I like the idea of lower weight as compared to his standard brass shafts. 2) the other thing that sold me on them is my work with building double basses. In the big carved bass world, the bridge height adjusters come in both brass and aluminum as regular options. Almost everyone I know prefers the sound of the aluminum to the heavier brass, myself included.

I also decided to go big, so I asked him to hand carve the baseplates in his Alessi Design Leaves 1 pattern; an amazing statement of beauty. I've seen this on guitars over at Dream Guitars, but never on mandolins. Here are some subtle examples:

http://www.alessituningmachines.it/Leaves.htm

I asked for just the minimal three screw holes in the baseplate- top, bottom, and middle; not the 5 holes that are common to a lot of sets. I try to minimize the amount of holes in the headstock.

While I was at it, I typically use striped macassar ebony for headplates, rather than black or gaboon ebony, so I asked if he could turn the buttons out of that rather than the black. I may send him some material from the same board that I made the peghead from, so there is a very good color, figure, and grain match.

These are still fairly standard in his design parameters, so we've just exchanged a few emails. If they were for a ten string or something more custom, I ALWAYS send a full blueprint with the specs in both English standard and metric. We'll likely exchange a couple of more emails and then I'll get in line. In the past I've actually sent him a cashier's check based upon the exchange rate for that day with enclosed documentation. While it may drive some folks nuts and seem very old school, I rather enjoy slowing down a bit and working with an old world craftsman like him. If there was someone around here that could do the same caliber of work, I'd likely order form them, but the reality is that Nicolo is the only person that I have ever run into that offers this type of custom service and who does it with such an Amazing aesthetic and precision.They should be here within a few months- no immediate gratification, but the long term satisfaction is worth the wait.

A few years back, he and I spoke at length about trying to have a regular stockpile on hand here, but then the economy fell apart and we were both pretty gunshy about having $20k or more wrapped up in hardware.

I'll show them off when they get here- probably about the time the fall colors are in full beauty...

Ciao,

j.
www.condino.com

[Dfyngravity]

I honestly say they are fantastic tuners. Definitely the best set of tuners I have had on any mandolin thus far. And yes, Alessi is a pleasure to deal with and is will to try just about anything. Here is the set I have on my mandolin.

[MandoPheel]

Ben,
Those tuners are very nice - I would like to order similar ones for an F-style but I'm trying to figure out some of the specs. Is the baseplate on your tuners just polished brass or is it gold plated? Also, what color are your posts and ferrules? I'm trying to replace a set of gold Gotoh tuners, but I'm not sure if polished brass for baseplate, posts and ferrules will look good or if I need everything gold plated. Yours look great, whatever the finish.

Thanks!

Phil

Also, thanks to James Condino for being willing to provide everyone with such useful information about Alessi tuners.

[Dfyngravity]

I believe everything is brass with stainless steel worm gears. These particular tuners are for slotted headstock. Here the are on my mandolin.

[MandoPheel]

Thanks Ben - the tuners look great. I really like the brass finish and I think it would look great with my other gold hardware.

That is one sexy mandolin you've got there - it looks like a blast to play.

Phil

[Ivan Kelsall]

James - I just had a look at the Alessi tuning machines website - they are works of art no less, & built from the ground up by one man,truly amazing !,
Ivan

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Here is an update on the process:

It has been about two weeks since Nicolo and I have had the dialogue going- approx. 5 emails; 2 were lost in transit and had to be resent.

I first told him that I liked the basic format of his F5 mandolin machine with ebony buttons, similar to the last set he sent me (photo 1)

Next I fell in love with the Alessi design Leaves Pattern, so I asked him to build a custom mandolin set with those hand engraved baseplates. (photo2)

A few days later he sent out a CAD drawing of the baseplate pattern along with the leave mockup.

A few days later, I saw the Hauser 11 style guitar machines with the wooden cutout / inserts and snakewood buttons (photo 3) and said, " WOW! I've gotta have that!!!!" I sent him a quick note to see if he had already made the bases and if not, could he morph those with the new F5 leaves.

j.
www.condino.com

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Three days later, I sent out another note asking the same thing. The next day, Nicolo sent another email and said that he already sent a new Leave / Hauser 11 / F5 drawing morph with red cutouts / snakewood, but since I never received it, here it was again.

One of the great things about the drawing is that it also gives me all of the small details and numbers on exactly how things will line up on the headstock- EXTREMELY important if these will be for a retrofitted instrument that is already made. In my case, I'll hold off cutting and shaping the actual headstock until I have the machines in hand to make sure everything fits perfect. He's in Italy, so everything is usually in metric; this works fine for me as I switch between metric and standard almost 50 / 50.

Two weeks of emails, a few lost exchanges, and now I've given him final approval and he will put those plates into his production schedule. Once they get a spot, we'll go over more details.

As a side note, so far I have not asked for a price; they are for someone else's long since paid deposit and my primary concern is simply having the ability to have someone custom make a set of machines like this that are available nowhere else in the world and will be appropriate for an upcoming new mandolin- a very modern F5 in my striped ebony series (are you following this thread Bob???) My internal estimate is that they will probably be the base price of $250 Euros for an F5, approx. $75 Euros for the leave engraving, and probably $75 Euros more for the Hauser style cutout / inlays in snakewood- so about $600 total for a one of a kind set that represents his best work.

If the design works out to my liking, I'll probably start keeping a smaller amount in regular production and here on site. Not for everyone, but very appropriate for a certain segment of the crowd.

'Hope all of this helps folks bridge the gap and allow them and Nicolo to better make things happen. So far all of my communications have been in English and I have not used the written or oral Italian translator services that I have in the past(@ $35 a page English to Italian documents).

Ciao,

j.
www.condino.com

[Tavy]

James, I love this thread - those tuners that formed the basis for the new design are all awesome in their own way - I can't wait to see the finished product - even if it's way out of my price league!

Be sure to post photos when they arrive!

[Mandolinshockandawe]

(are you following this thread Bob???)
Hi James, I get all tingly inside when I think of the Mando you are creating!!! Bob K

[yankees1]

What gear ratio are his tuners? I really like the 18:1 ratio of the Grover 309 tuners.

[Marc Berman]

Hi,
This is an update on the tuners I ordered from Nicolo. I've had them for a while but never got around to taking photos until now. I went with plated brass shafts instead of his new aluminum design. I wasn't really concerned about Galvanic corrosion. The aluminum shafts and bushings are black anodized and I wanted a more traditional look.
Nicolo was great to work with. Yes, there was some lag between sending and receiving emails but it didn't bother me. Using English wasn't a problem since I wasn't asking for much in the way of custom work. As I already mentioned the big difference was plated brass shafts and bushings instead of his new aluminum design. I did try an online translator when I was originally discussing the issue of Galvanic corrosion but Nicolo advised me not to use it again . I also opted for his "standard" engraving. I like it's simplicity. So the shafts, bushings and plates are Palladium (silvery-white) plated brass. Worm gear shafts and screws are stainless steel. The gears are bronze. Buttons are MOP.
Cost including shipping was a little more than $500. The shipping was 50eu BUT I got them in 2 days!! I've had things shipped to me from the UK and have sat around for days/weeks hoping they would arrive so for me the cost was worth it.
Actual cost:
Base Tuners: 250eu
MOP Buttons: 60eu
Shipping: 50eu
Did I mention the tuners are great?

[Brad Maestas]

He makes some great machines, that's for sure. My classical came with Sloanes and I had the chance to try Rubner, Allessi and Gilbert tuners on it. They are all great tuners. Much of it is an aesthetic choice. The Sloanes looked the most natural. The Alessi were just beautiful and worked great on the guitar. The Gilberts are decidedly more industrial. I didn't end up replacing my Sloanes but if I did, I'd go with Alessi or Gilberts.

As for mando tuners, Alessi is a nice option against the Waverly juggernaut. My Summit came with Schaller golds with MOP buttons. I'm considering going nickel with my hardware but the Waverlys are just too much. $350+ is a bit more reasonable. If I do go nickel I'll probably get a set from Nicolo. Thanks for reminding me he makes mando machines too!