A question for users of the Classifieds

[Scott Tichenor]

I've been mulling something over and thought it worth tossing out to see what the trend in feedback might be. Some time back Dan assisted in getting some data added to each Classifieds posting that showed how many previous ads a user had submitted. Truthfully, this information only goes back a few years, but I think is very, very useful in establishing trust with your seller. It's letting you know if you're working with someone that has a history here. Having a history (99.9% of the time) means the participation has been free of things that tend to get a seller or buyer booted (not delivering an instrument paid for, non-payment when seller sent before received payment, other fraudulent activity, etc.). What I often see is what may look like an ad that's a bit suspicious, I dig around and find the individual has a history going back several years of replying to ads, but has never placed one. Same rule applies. The fact they're participating means they're good folks to deal with, and really, 99.99% of them are great folks to deal with. It's the remaining few I deal with and evaluate on a daily basis.

I'm considering having the number of replies displayed next to the number of ads. I think this is really useful information. So, Joe Blow, this is his first ad he's ever placed, but he's replied to 29 ads. That paints a very different history that what we currently offer. I can understand someone possibly saying, "oh, that's invasive," and you're welcome to that opinion. I just don't agree with it.

Bottom line: fraud is not going away. You may think that having systems protected by credit cards and logins improves security. Case in point: eBay, Craig's List. I see this as another step in identifying people who participate here over the long haul. There are a lot of them and this data could be a further step in painting a more complete picture of the individual you're dealing with.

Opinions?

[Ed Goist]

I've been mulling something over and thought it worth tossing out to see what the trend in feedback might be. ...snip...
I'm considering having the number of replies displayed next to the number of ads. I think this is really useful information. So Joe Blow, this is his first ad he's ever placed, but he's replied to 29 ads...snip...
Opinions?

Hi Scott:

I agree completely. It would be useful information, and I'd like to see it added.

I'll go even further, I'd also like to see the seller's Mandolin Cafe join date listed (or, if non-members can post a classified (?) something like 'seller is not a Mandolin Cafe Member'.)

Hence, for every ad placed I'd love to see:
Previous ads:
Previous replies:
Join Date:

I think one of the most powerful aspects of the Cafe classified is that we feel safer buying and selling within the community. Having the additional information listed about the seller would make potential buyers more informed about the community involvement of the seller, and possibly make them feel more confident about any buying decision.

Thanks;
Ed

[Steve-o]

Scott,
I think its a good idea and have no problem with it. Just a small question: Does replying to an ad mean a deal was consumated, or just an email sent?

Edit: I second Ed's opinion too.

[evanreilly]

Howabout also adding 'views' per ad, as Ebay does?
I think more info is better......

[Scott Tichenor]

Howabout also adding 'views' per ad, as Ebay does?
I think more info is better......

That doesn't add any security or prove anything, and since there are multiple ways of viewing ads, meaning some are inline with others, it becomes increasingly of less value in my opinion.

[Scott Tichenor]

Scott,
I think its a good idea and have no problem with it. Just a small question: Does replying to an ad mean a deal was consumated, or just an email sent?

Edit: I second Ed's opinion too.

No, replying to an ad does not mean a sale was made. Many ads have dozens of replies but there's only one item to sell.

[Bill Bradshaw]

I look at the classifieds all the time, have sold some parts, and test drove 1 mandolin through the classifieds. If I use the classifieds again, and posting a bit more information about my history increases security and trust levels, I'm all for it.

[Paul Haley]

As yet, I have neither bought nor sold on the classifieds. Selling and purchasing mandolins is (thankfully) an extremely infrequent activity for me. However, I can imagine that should I eventually wish to part with one of my treasures, it is probable that I would choose to advertise on the Cafe Classifieds (even though I'm on the wrong side of the pond).

Given these circumstances, under the proposed system my transaction record would not engender a great deal of confidence in potential purchasers . Would it be possible in addition to one's buying and selling history to display the length of time a vendor has been a Cafe member? That may augment one's credibility / probity.

[Bill Van Liere]

. Truthfully, this information only goes back a few years, but I think is very, very useful in establishing trust with your seller. It's letting you know if you're working with someone that has a history here. Having a history (99.9% of the time) means the participation has been free of things that tend to get a seller or buyer booted (not delivering an instrument paid for, non-payment when seller sent before received payment, other fraudulent activity, etc.). What I often see is what may look like an ad that's a bit suspicious, I dig around and find the individual has a history going back several years of replying to ads, but has never placed one. Same rule applies. The fact they're participating means they're good folks to deal with, and really, 99.99% of them are great folks to deal with. It's the remaining few I deal with and evaluate on a daily basis.



Opinions?

That sounds like my situation IF I ever decided to sell anything here. I have been a member since 2003. I purchased two mandolins off the classifieds here, one that same year, one in 2005, but have never placed an add here. So from that you at least know that I paid for what I purchased here and hopefully will honestly sell what I say I am selling.

I don't expect to be well known around here but if you dig around you should be able to find members that personally know me and would likely vouch for me.

Thanks for your efforts Scott, a well run ship.

BVL

[Jill McAuley]

I think anything folks make a more informed decision is a good thing - and like other folks have already mentioned, I too think that listing a cafe members "join date" in the ad could be helpful as well.

Cheers,
Jill

[MartyCanary]

Scott,
I think any additional measures you can take to protect buyers and sellers will have a positive outcome, particularly considering the value of many of the items that pass through the classifieds. Many with historic and artistic value far beyond their dollar value. No person could possibly deny the importance of greater consumer protection unless their motives are less then honorable.
I also have no issue with adding join date.
Marty

[Scott Tichenor]

A forum join date doesn't really have that much value in my opinion. Some, but not much. There are so many messed up accounts, duplicates (honest mistakes... people struggle with basic technology, it's a fact that should surprise no one), and just because you register and maybe never post (majority of accounts) doesn't prove much. Plus, we'd be providing information that is possibly confidential. If we tie the Classified email to the forum account email then we'd be potentially outing anonymous members. I'm OK with anonymous as long as it's used responsibly and most times it is. This may be going beyond what I'm willing to do. I often have people contact me to ask about the validity of buyer or seller and will provide that information if they're a member of the forum, but making it publicly available to everyone I think moves in a direction I'm not yet comfortable with and would have to think over more carefully. I understand the value, but there are real down sides to it.

Example: someone's join date is listed as March, 2007. Common practice is for someone to use part of their email address as their anonymous forum handle. ie., mandocat7@somesite.com. Hmm, there's a 'mandocat7' user on the forum. Probably the same person. 'mandocat7' is no longer anonymous. You can mine a lot of information in that fashion and others, back-matching the IP addresses to user location, etc. Let's just say I'd already thought out this suggestion and am seeing it again and am not yet convinced it's all positive.

[citeog]

I think this is a good idea. Although I've yet to try and sell an instrument on this board, I've bought one from a member (thank you, Andrew Mowry). There was less trepidation involved in a purchase from what are (hopefully) like-minded individuals or businesses than dealing with the free-for-all that is Ebay or Craigslist.

Paul

[JEStanek]

I often include my handle in my ads and may mention my handle when replying to an ad just so the buyer/seller can see my presence here. I think as you communicate with a buyer or seller, those are questions you might ask of each other amongst others as you establish a trust relationship for the deal.

Jamie

[Ray(T)]

Living in the UK, its unlikely that I would reply to the majority of adverts in the classifieds but it is always a possibility. I would, however, go further than Ed, in the second post, suggests. I think the degree to which an individual participates is also important. I'd be more likely to trust an advert from someone who'd been an active member for some time rather than someone who hardly ever posted but regularly had instruments for sale.

Mentioning no names, I am aware of a member of another forum who regularly has instruments for sale but the only post I have ever found was along the lines of "yes, they are excellent - in fact I have one for sale".

[Miked]

I agree with the others. I don't have any history with selling, but if I were to list something, it would be good to show some additional information. How about a letter of reference from my boss or pastor?

[Ted Eschliman]

Forum join date could be confusing, like Scott says, sometimes these accounts get messed up and restarted, but I have to agree with Jamie that an identifiable connection with a Forum "handle" is very much a stamp of credibility, if nothing else, a comfortable step away from anonymity. I don't think requiring it is the answer, but making it an option (like the street address) seems a pretty sound idea for those that want to volunteer it, but don't think to.

[barrangatan]

I often have people contact me to ask about the validity of buyer or seller and will provide that information if they're a member of the forum, but making it publicly available to everyone I think moves in a direction I'm not yet comfortable with and would have to think over more carefully. I understand the value, but there are real down sides to it.

Scott - I like the new idea about the 'reply' to stats, but my initial reaction is to suggest requiring a log in to post in Classifieds, and then the log in back to the seller's Cafe account. This way, as a buyer, I can look at the seller's previous Cafe postings and history to determine if the person is legit, or have any past unpleasant history that I would rather avoid.

I can't say I understand fully your concerns about how tying the two will compromise privacy for Cafe members. If a Cafe member wishes to sell something in the Classifieds, he/she must be willing to divulge a bit of history about themselves in order to make the deal. I guess one way of saying it is that making the transactions 'less anonymous' is a direction I'd like to see the Classifies go. Just my 2 cents, and hope this helps. I browse the Classifieds constantly and am very appreciative of the effort you put in to keep it such a wonderful resource.

[Scott Tichenor]

And you can always ask a seller if they're a member of the forum, and if you wish, you can offer that information as part of the Classified Ad. Some people do and there's nothing wrong with that. If you're looking to make a sale, doing something proactively to enhance your reputation without forcing the buyer to take those steps can't hurt.

[jdchapman]

I'd welcome anything that makes the process safer and more transparent. I like most of the ideas listed above, and wouldn't mind additional identity verification, though I know that gives some folks the willies. Add my thanks to the others.

[Scott Tichenor]

Scott - I like the new idea about the 'reply' to stats, but my initial reaction is to suggest requiring a log in to post in Classifieds, and then the log in back to the seller's Cafe account. This way, as a buyer, I can look at the seller's previous Cafe postings and history to determine if the person is legit, or have any past unpleasant history that I would rather avoid.

I can't say I understand fully your concerns about how tying the two will compromise privacy for Cafe members. If a Cafe member wishes to sell something in the Classifieds, he/she must be willing to divulge a bit of history about themselves in order to make the deal. I guess one way of saying it is that making the transactions 'less anonymous' is a direction I'd like to see the Classifies go. Just my 2 cents, and hope this helps. I browse the Classifieds constantly and am very appreciative of the effort you put in to keep it such a wonderful resource.

The difference is Classified ads go away, expire, and are much harder to track after a very short time. Posting on a forum, something said out here might still be around 25 years from now. To my mind, that's a huge difference. People willingly add person information to the Classifieds. For a forum, it's a different intent.

Requiring a login to reply to an ad would result in a dramatic set of problems for yours truly and require a lot of reverse engineering that isn't that simple. Not impossible, just not simple. People can't even keep or remember the passwords on the Classifieds or Forum that we send them via email, and generally refuse to try to use the tools to retrieve their own passwords and user IDs. While an open system like that is actually very rare and somewhat dangerous, we have years of experience and a lot of things going on behind the scenes to prevent a lot of bad business. And it works.

[B. T. Walker]

I don't spend that much time in the classifieds, so though I've been a member for years, my reply count would be pretty low. I've never sold anything through the cafe either, and I rarely buy. How would that affect my credibility when I start to thin the herd?

I agree, however, the more information without outing anonymous members the better. Would displaying the advertiser's forum join date have to be mandatory for each ad, or could it just be displayed for identified users?

Keep mulling Scott; it's just one more way we know you care.

[Steve Cantrell]

I have worked IT in the Security field for all manner of telecommunications companies, and as I tell our customers and the people I work with: there is no such thing as too much security when you're dealing with the Internet. I know that sounds a little paranoid, but that's the result of years of experience with dealing with an ever-changing legion of faceless people wanting to deprive you of anything you have of value. It's sad, but unfortunately true.

[Hallmark498]

Good idea Scott!!!!

I see it as a persons online credit score. Bad score I wouldnt deal with them.

David

[LKN2MYIS]

Scott, I think it's a great idea.

I've only used the classifieds rarely to purchase an instrument or two, but would welcome the chance to prove I'm 'legit' if I decide to sell something.