What A-model did Sam Bush Play?

**fatt-dad** · Oct-04-2004, 9:12pm

Dear NG,

I noticed the vintage bluegrass photos (subject of another post) and was looking through my Jack Tottle Bluegrass Mandolin book and at both instances there were photos of a long-haired, youthful Sam Bush with an A-model mandolin. (This was likley the early seventies when the photos were taken.)

Anybody have a clue what he had in those days. 'Cause, I may have to get one to go for the early Sam sound. (I'm working on Lonesome Fiddle Blues.)

fatt-dad

**JimRichter** · Oct-04-2004, 9:56pm

I could be mistaken, but I believe Sam played one of Givens' early A5 copies (based on Tut Taylor's "Griffith" Loar A5).

Jim

**telepbrman** · Oct-04-2004, 9:57pm

I have the Mandolin World News with him on the cover, I'll go back and reread it to see if there is any info...dy.

**John Rosett** · Oct-04-2004, 10:14pm

i remember reading about sam playing a re-topped teens A many years ago.
john

**JimRichter** · Oct-04-2004, 11:28pm

Sorry, got the maker wrong. Thought it was Givens, but it seems to be Randy Wood (went back to Tut Taylor's website and he mentions Sam playing a Randy Wood made A5 copy at that time). Thought it was Givens since he was doing work for Tut at that time (but then again, he and Wood were working together too).

Jim

**Scotti Adams** · Oct-05-2004, 3:44am

..I talked to Doyle Lawson about this issue awhile back. When Doyle first went with the Gents he was playing an A model with a long neck....he said he and Sam were playing the same make and the only 2 that he knew of. But..I just got up...and its early and all of my senses havent came to me yet...and I cant remember...when I come around Im sure to think of it and I will come back and post....oh....I know what he said wasnt a Randy Wood or a modified Gibson.

**AlanN** · Oct-05-2004, 4:02am

I asked that very question to BU must have been 15 years ago. Remember seeing a photo of the ca. 1971 CG and Doyle was sporting an A model. His answer, as appeared in the magazine "It was a converted A-50". And by "converted", I think he meant longer neck, regraduated top. I think he used that mandolin to record his classic, wrote-the-book- break to Little Bessie.

**fatt-dad** · Oct-05-2004, 6:40am

From what I could see, it certainly had the A5 scale length and what looked to be a "snakehead" type headstock. When we figure this out, I would then be interested in how/when did he get his F-5 "hoss".

f-d

**JimRichter** · Oct-05-2004, 7:31am

My understanding is that Bush's F5 belonged to Norman Blake. Norman did a bunch of modifying to it (sanding/thinning the top) and ended up trading/selling it to Tut Taylor. Bush bought it from Tut Taylor. This was all around 1972 or 3.

**Darryl Wolfe** · Oct-05-2004, 8:34am

I'm not sure whether he had more than one...but, he definately played an A-50 that either Randy Wood or Givens had converted to A-5 style with a new long neck. This was around 1970-71 when Tony Rice was "discovered" at Camp Springs. He got Hoss shortly thereafter.

**Darryl Wolfe** · Oct-05-2004, 8:35am

Regarding Hoss, I have pictures of Sam with it BEFORE it was modified

**Rroyd** · Oct-05-2004, 8:49am

I haven't seen the photos referred to, but it's possible that one or more of them might be of the real thing. Tut Taylor had told Sam he would sell him the Griffith Loar A, (but sold it to another buyer instead) and as I recall, had loaned it to Sam to play for a while. I don't know how long he had it, and I don't think he ever recorded with it, but perhaps one of the photos was taken during that time.

**rixter** · Oct-05-2004, 9:14am

"When Doyle first went with the Gents he was playing an A model with a long neck....he said he and Sam were playing the same make and the only 2 that he knew of."

I was looking at a dvd of Doyle and Quicksilver last night that was filmed I think around 1994. He played an "A" that I couldn't identify for over half of the video, with the remainder on the Pag. Would that be the same "A", does anybody know? Interesting discussion.

**Darryl Wolfe** · Oct-05-2004, 9:19am

Here is what I remember... I was at the Camp Springs festival when Sam and the Alliance played. This was during the New Deal String Band and Lawson with J. D. Crowe days. Norman B. was there, Tut was there. Tut had the A-5 at that festival and Sam played it some. Sam had the converted A-50 which he had been playing for quite a while. Tut had Hoss that he had just purchased with him. It was only a few months later that Sam bought Hoss in it's original shiny condition. Not long afterward, Hoss was worked on. Tut had just sold the Griffith F5 to Norman. It was much later that Tut sold the A-5 (1976) and he called me first to sell it, but, I had just bought the Griffith F-5 as my first Loar. In 1976, Sam was indelibly attached to Hoss and well on his way with The Newgrass Revival.

**fatt-dad** · Oct-05-2004, 9:56am

So, in whose hands is the converted A-50? It would be interesting to know how that instrument holds up to many of the fine mandolins being made today.

**Scotti Adams** · Oct-05-2004, 12:47pm

Ok Darryl...help me out here..Ive racked my brain all day and cant for the life of me remember who Doyle said did the A5 conversion he played back then...think of some builders in the 60's and 70's...not Randy or Tut......the only thing I can think of is Ward Im pretty sure thats not it...or was it...a CE Ward....maybe...hmmm....god....a brain is a terrible thing to waste..He said that Sam and he were the only two at the time who had them..

**Paul Kotapish** · Oct-05-2004, 1:37pm

Well I can't prove it with any documentation, but back in the early '70s I heard Sam's A-50 referred to as a "Givens Conversion," and as I understood it then, Bob Givens and Tut Taylor had done a number of these before they began recreating their own versions of the rare Loar A-5. I saw the Bush mandolin once or twice, and it looked a bit odd. The longer neck required a funny placement of the bridge on the top, and the whole thing looked a tad lopsided. Sounded amazing, though.

I was very interested in this conversion at the time, because I was playing an old A-50 with the original neck. It had a killer sound, but I was getting frustrated with the short neck and thought that the conversion might be a good way to go. Never had it done, though, and I passed it on when I got one of the very early Stan Miller F-5s.

**mikeyes** · Oct-05-2004, 1:57pm

Sam played an A-50 that was converted to an A-5 by Randy Woods. I know because I have one (#10) and they are rare birds. Randy told me he made one for Sam Busha and for Doyle Lawson. The one I have was originally made for Larry Sledge when Randy was part owner of the Pickin' Parlor in Nashville.
I know of one more of these fine instruments which is in the hands of a friend of mine. I understand about 13 of them were made. It was a fleeting project of Randy Woods in the 70's and mine is dated 1973. I might be able to post pictures if anyone is interested.

**mandoJeremy** · Oct-05-2004, 1:58pm

Darryl, you know that particular Fern Loar up in Asheville I mentioned to you some time back on the Loar thread that doesn't get played? #When I last played it the owner told me that Sam really wanted it and had tried to buy it from him. #That was probably four or five years ago. #Do you know if there is any truth to that?

**Lefty&French** · Oct-05-2004, 2:06pm

Quote :I noticed the vintage bluegrass photos (subject of another post) and was looking through my Jack Tottle Bluegrass Mandolin book and at both instances there were photos of a long-haired, youthful Sam Bush with an A-model mandolin. (This was likley the early seventies when the photos were taken.)

This one ?

**mikeyes** · Oct-05-2004, 2:24pm

I keep this same Tottle picture with my RW A5 Conversion to show to anyone who is interested. Mine looks just like the one that Sam is holding. And I looked just as young when I bought it in 1975 from George Gruhn after Larry Sledge traded it in. I asked Larry about this instrument about a year ago. He said that a family member had the A-50 and Larry had it converted at the Pickin' Parlor. He played it for a while and then bought a different mandolin (an older F style, I think) but still misses the A-5 conversion.
Geroge Gruhn said that it was the same conversion Sam Bush and Doyle Lawson had played. A week after I got it, Buddy Spicher told me that it was the best A model he had ever heard. (Actually he first said, "Boy, that thing is loud, where did you get it?")
I had seem a similar instrument in the hands of a friend of mine (#9 or so in the series, Randy numbered and dated the later ones on the label inside) and really wanted one.
As for how well they held up, Very Well! is my verdict. I still play it regularly in spite of owning a Triggs F5L and a Fern V and it continues to draw praise when it is heard in public.

**Lefty&French** · Oct-05-2004, 2:24pm

Some notes on the LP "Friar Tut-Tut Taylor" :

**Scotti Adams** · Oct-05-2004, 4:05pm

..hmmm...looks like you guys know what you are talking about...makes me wonder why Doyle told me differently..

**fatt-dad** · Oct-05-2004, 9:08pm

So what's this?

f-d

(by the way this is facinating to me.)

**mandoJeremy** · Oct-05-2004, 9:35pm

I wonder sometimes if "anonymous" people post threads to boost sales on the Cafe or Ebay. Think about it, this thread shows up asking about Sam's A model mando when this thread is going? Maybe I am just paranoid. I still wouldn't bid on it.