How to remove the neck

**fatt-dad** · Oct-04-2004, 8:29pm

Dear NG,

I posted on this sevaral months ago, but my project went on hold. I want to retry to remove the neck on my $40.00 Montana flat-top mandolin. My ultimate goal is to increase the neck angle.

Here's where I am: I got a knife and removed the finish along the neck joint (where it abuts the body) and also along the fretboard/top joint. I can see that the joint that needs work has a glue of some ilk holding things together. I know that there are several types of glue used in instrument making - I just have no clue (other than that it is a $40.00 mandolin)

I am willing to use steam, Xacto, Alcohol, methylene chloride, gasoline, paint thinner or whatever. I am willing to leave the mandolin in the car on a hot day at a shopping mall (windows up of course). I just would like to make some reasonable progress and learn something. I am not the least bit concerned with cosmetics. This is my beach mandolin (photo at www.fatt-dad.com)

Comments?

fatt-dad

**Bob DeVellis** · Oct-05-2004, 10:35am

I've never done anything remotely like this, but it's my understanding that a common method for neck removal is to pull a fret above the neck joint, drill a small hole, starting in the fret groove, into the neck joint, and then use a needle and hose to force steam into the joint. fter, the fret can be replaced and the hole will be invisible. If cosmetics aren't an issue, you could drill through the bakc of the heel, I suppose. If the glue won't soften with steam, I'd worry about ever getting it apart without completely butchering it. As for what to use for a needle, I'm not sure. I've seen small bottles of oil with needle-like tips for delivering a drop precisely. Something like that might work. But more experienced people will know more than I do.

I think it's worth asking whether trying to get the neck off is more likely to do harm than good. If all you're after is the learning experience, I guess there's no harm. But it seems like there's a good chance that things could go wrong that would make the instrument worse rather than better. But you know your skills better than I do, so I may be wrong.

**Big Joe** · Oct-05-2004, 11:20am

Depending upon how the neck is joined you may have to do actual surgery. If it is held together by dowels you may have to cut the dowels to remove the neck. If it is held together by epoxy I'm not sure what you could use except dynamite. If it is a traditional dovetail or mortise and tenon joint steam is a very effective method if it uses a conventional glue.

Oct-05-2004, 11:59am

I just spent 3 hrs setting up a Hondo (don't ask)......So I'd recommend you hang it in the shower & instruct everyone in the household to take VERY hot showers.......in two or three days you should be able to pick up the pieces from the shower floor & reassemble it!

**WoodyMcKenzie** · Oct-05-2004, 12:13pm

Another alternative that might be possible is to not remove the neck, but remove the fingerboard instead. then you can add a wedge of wood between the neck and fingerboard to raise the angle of the strings. I am sure there are different ways to do this, but what I have done (on fiddles) is glue a flat piece of wood to the fingerboard and once it's dry, then plane/sand it to get the desired angle. Just a thought...

Woody

**fatt-dad** · Oct-05-2004, 12:55pm

Originally Posted by (WoodyMcKenzie @ Oct. 05 2004, 13:13)

Another alternative that might be possible is to not remove the neck, but remove the fingerboard instead. then you can add a wedge of wood between the neck and fingerboard to raise the angle of the strings. I am sure there are different ways to do this, but what I have done (on fiddles) is glue a flat piece of wood to the fingerboard and once it's dry, then plane/sand it to get the desired angle. Just a thought...

Woody

Could this really work? It just seems so reasonable.

Comments?

**grsnovi** · Oct-05-2004, 5:57pm

I went to your web site to try to see the mando in question, but in addition to the one you're playing in the beach chair, there are a few. It is really hard to suggest an answer to your question. There is no woodworking reason that you can't simply replace the fretboard with a sufficiently tapered board, but if you're only doing it to learn, open that baby up and see what you will see - the only way to get experience is to do. As Joe points out, you could literally find anything in there but you ought to be able to look at it and get a pretty good idea of what you will likely encounter. If the instrument is old, it was likely either a straight mortise-tenon joint or a dovetail assembled with hide glue.

If it has been fooled with already, it could have been epoxied, it could have dowels, etc...

**fatt-dad** · Oct-05-2004, 7:58pm

I think that I heard that a hair dryer can help soften the glued joints. Will it (whether for the fretboard or the neck)?

f-d

**Steve Hinde** · Oct-05-2004, 8:19pm

If your ultimate goal is to change the neck angle, then you should remove the finger board anyway. If you remove the board, you can see what type of construction was used for the neck joint, and facilitate the removal of the neck. Also, if the neck angle is changed, the board level will also have to be adjusted to keep the fingerboard flat past the neck joint. So, I would remove the fingerboard first. My choice would be to try heat first to soften the glue. I don't know if a hair drier would be enough heat. A heat gun would be my weapon of choice. You can insulate the area around the board with cardboard wrapped with aluminum foil in layers to protect the surrounding finish. Then heat the board evenly and see if the glue loosens up enough to remove the board. You may damage the neck binding if it has any. So be careful. Or just plan on rebinding the fingerboard. I agree with shimming the fingerboard as opposed to resetting the neck. Unless the neck is twisted or warped beyond adjustment. You may also discover interference with the back or the soundboard causing a much more difficult neck removal.
Good luck! It sounds like a fun experiment to play with on an inexpensive instrument anyway. And a great learning experience.

Steve

**krishna** · Oct-05-2004, 8:40pm

Chubby-father, the suggestion of Woody is the best one here.I have no idea why everyone went along with what you originally sugested instead of actually thinking what you wanted. I have had to do this job(and the exact opposite) a few times.You can get the fingerboard off the mando with a filed down #butterknife (grind it off on a grinding wheel) then get a hairdryer,and heat up the fingerboard.Do the extender over the top 1st. Just heat up about 4 or 5 inches at a time.It will take about 15 mins probably. DON"T RUSH!!! Once you have it off,sand the underside of the board,and the neck surface clean.Get some hardwood,and cut it to the right wedge size and thickness.It does'nt have to be very thick at the extention to make a big difference at the bridge. The wedge you cut does not have to be all that flat to start exept for the part that glues down to the neck.Glue it down. Then get a VERY flat sanding block #(A lot of Luthiers use a two inch square structual aluminnum tube (Glaziers use it alot for remanufacturing windows) with 4 grades of paper 2sided taped onto it.I have 5 different lengths of those things) #and sand the new part down untill exceptable for what you want. Make SURE you are looking at the sanding often,or you will go down off the side or something...it HAS to be square,,,Once you've done that ,It'll be clear sailing for glueing the #fingerboard back on.Got the idea? Email me if you have any Questions. #PS I did'nt tell what to do if there is a trussrod cause it's not very likely....Kerry

**fatt-dad** · Oct-05-2004, 9:00pm

This is perfect. Any concerns about what type of wood to use for the wedge? Should it extend all the way to the underside of the nut? I really think that this may work!

f-d

**krishna** · Oct-05-2004, 9:21pm

Use some wood that looks like (if you have it) what the neck is allready made of. And PLEASE be carefull taking the fingerboard off. You do NOT want to break it! Make sure also that you scribe exactly were the nut should start. This is were the wedge should start... With a sharp razor score the laquer at the back of the nut were it looks like it might be laquered in,and then put a block of wood on the fingerboard right against the nut and carefully give it a small tap towards the headstock.The nut should come right off. Then scribe it right there against the base of the fingerboard ok?..Kerry

**Jim Garber** · Oct-05-2004, 9:26pm

It still seems like neck reset could be a viable alternative. Check out Frank Ford's step-by-step instructions. Granted they are on a guitar but should be similar.

I would think that the wedge might work too but you have to deal with accuracy in keeping the wedge flat. Assuming your fretboard is flat to begin with, you are only changing the neck angle here.

Jim

**krishna** · Oct-05-2004, 9:29pm

Didnt we just go through all this?

**Bill Snyder** · Oct-05-2004, 9:42pm

If you decide to use a heat gun instead of a hair dryer be careful. I have two heat guns. One will get up to 1200 degrees F (It's no Home Depot model). It will seriously scorch the wood very quickly at that setting.
Even the Wagner heat guns available at several retailers can heat the wood up too hot if you are not careful.

**fatt-dad** · Oct-06-2004, 6:45am

Well, I feel like I have a mission plan. It may be awhile to get the work done, but I'll be sure to repost at some point in the future.

Thanks again!

fatt-dad

**krishna** · Oct-06-2004, 9:38pm

Believe it or not, yu could probably get this whole thing done in way less than 48 hours. And if you are gonna use a heat gun...well... I would'nt. I have no experiercewith them other than using them to light fires. Seriosly....Kerry. My email is kerrykrishna2@hotmail.com.I'll give you my home # and you can call if you want for some encouragment...

**mandroid** · Oct-06-2004, 11:02pm

as I understand a steam needle thing fitted thru the removed fret above the dovetail joint is the practice, to remove the neck, if it needs removing, #if its solidly glued, then taking your fingerboard off and shimming it is better, I would think.
removal later is why modern glues are crazy,for these puropses. seek hide!

**Rob Grant** · Oct-07-2004, 12:12am

Here's an example of a flattop I made several years ago that uses the "wedge" to change the angle of the fretboard.
I wanted to raise the bridge to increase the pressure on the top without affecting the action. My necks are fixed in such a way that they literally become part of the head block. This was an easy and elegant method of obtaining that end. The wedge is a different wood from the fretboard or the neck and is therefore readily visible with this example.

**fatt-dad** · Oct-07-2004, 6:23am

Again - Thanks for the great feedback. I guess my lingering concern is whether I have the proper tools for the job. I suspect that a real luthier has specialized tools for every step of this entire process. I, on the other hand, will approach this with the butter knife, hand plane, scraper, hair dryer, sanding block, etc. I know it will be crude, but the challenge/learning process will be great (I hope).

fatt-dad

**Rob Powell** · Oct-07-2004, 7:57am

Rob,

While that wedge is readily visible, it certainly doesn't detract from the appearance in any way!

**Rob Grant** · Oct-08-2004, 3:15am

The "wedge" is the same material as the binding (New Guinea ebony). No doubt the lamination and creation of the wedge would actually increase the strength of the three piece neck with truss rod... now a four piece neck! When it was done, I actually liked the look of the wedge. It also fixed the low bridge problem and helped produce one of the loudest mandolins I ever made. This instrument was sold to a local violin player who used it to back up Christine Olson at a gig she did here last February.

**fatt-dad** · Oct-08-2004, 6:38am

Hey, I'm thinking that the wedge will help resize the neck for my big hands also! I mean there must be a playability factor (hope it's not too much of an effect). I am not dismayed though as I am really into this for the learning, but want to be successful too.

f-d

**PaulD** · Oct-18-2004, 6:24pm

I don't know if anyone is still monitoring this thread, but I thought I would suggest using a household iron to soften the glue. I use this method to disassemble glued joints on chairs and other furniture. I use the lowest heat setting that will soften the glue... sometimes I end up just leaving the iron sitting on the joint for 15 or 20 minutes on a very low setting, checking occasionally to see if things have softened up. I would imagine this would work very well for fretboards, but I will add the disclaimer that I've been known to have a vivid imagination and I have never actually removed a fretboard!

I would also suggest using an old iron that you can dedicate to your shop rather than baking glue into your clothes next time they need ironing!

With regards to your tool collection: I think what you listed is probably all you need. Sure, you could have a specialized heat blanket, or some thin-bladed knives for working the joint apart, but I don't think you should need those things to make it work.

**sunburst** · Oct-18-2004, 10:06pm

I just read this thread since it popped up again.
As for the special tools that a "real" luthier would use, I guess I'm pretty much a "real" luthier, and my tool of choice for fretboard removal in a Red Devil putty knife that I've had for years and hope I never break because I can't find another like it.

Now for the real reason I'm posting here. All this talk about hair dryers and heat guns.
Once in a while you get to learn from someone else's mistake and avoid making that mistake yourself. Well, once another "real" luthier asked me if I could think of any reason not to use a heat gun to remove a guitar bridge. I said "no", that I couldn't think of a reason not to. Here's what happened. The blowing hot air found it's way under the aluminum foil covered cardboard protecting the guitar top and bubbled the finish well before the glue turned loose.
You don't get paid for touching up something like that when it's your own fault.

For fingerboards I usually heat with a household iron set on "kill".
For guitar bridges, and for fingerboard extenders during guitar neck re-sets, I use a heat lamp with aluminum foil covered cardboard to protect the top.