Monroe's Mandolin & resonant Frequency

[GTison]

I don't think I've seen this before, But
I was talking to C. Derrington back in about 1990 (yr.?). I was checking out some of the new F5L's he had for sale. I hummed into it to see what the resonant frequency was. I had just discovered this probably. He heard me do that and said that typically they were at Eb, BUT that Monroe's mandolin resonated at "E". Can anyone here confirm this? Or do you know if the Monroe models had this feature? Or if, anyone else ever tried this on a mandolin?

GT

[re simmers]

I never tried it until this past week with my new Buckeye. I noticed that it resonates quite a bit when I talk into it. I will put a tuner on it and see if I can figure out what the pitch is.

I never heard that about Monroe's mando, but I'm sure someone here knows.

Bob

[Steve Cantrell]

"Can't You Hear Me Calling?" notes that during a recording on some more modern equipment, an overtone was heard on Monroe's mandolin that he had been claiming was there for years, but if my memory serves me it was B...or maybe Bb.

[Steve Ostrander]

Seems like Bill played a lot in the key of B or B flat.

[sunburst]

The note that you hear when you thump a mandolin, the same note that will respond strongest when you hum or sing near it (often known as the Helmholtz frequency), is determined almost completely by the size of the interior, that is, the amount or air space, and the size of the holes (F or oval). The size of the F holes has less effect than the size of the interior, so you will find that all F5-style mandolins of "standard" dimensions will respond to a similar note, in the vicinity of a D.

[AlanN]

Seems like Bill played a lot in the key of B or B flat.

That's B natchul, boy

[GTison]

Yes Sunburst, I believe that is what I am talking about.

(It seems C Derrington also mentioned air chamber volume this on this board, when talking about the volume of the A5L body style not matching the original Gibson Loar A-5. Also, that that they weren't going to change it.)

[Chuck Naill]

I just checked the Horner A5 which has an air resonance of E flat or D sharp. From what I have read, this is what Mr Loar was after. He made the A5 F holes smaller in order to get this resonance.

[Geoff B]

Siminoff says D and D# if you go too far in his book. Enlarging the holes will make the helmholtz (main air body) resonance go up, smaller holes will make it go lower. The relationship is a (roughly, I think) a proportional square root, for the changes. So to double the frequency, you'd make the holes 4 times larger...

[eightmoremiles]

It is not just the particular frequency, or pitch, of the resonance that distinguishes Loars. More importantly it is the amplitude of the resonance, and the directionality of the resonant frequencies emanated.
Play a Loar, and then sit in front of one while it is played, and you will see what I mean.

[re simmers]

When I played 2 of Herschel Sizemore's Loars, the sound seemed to, not just fill the room, but it seemed to resonate from the walls of his living room. They had so much projection. It was like surround sound....unplugged. Of course when Herschel played them it was much better.

Bob

[Ben Milne]

of course if you wanted a frequency a whole octave higher (IE doubling frequency) a smaller chamber would be recommended... there may not be much mandolin left if increasing the f-hole size four fold.

[8ch(pl)]

When the A9 came out, Charlie Derrington wrote that it was made to replicate the body volume of an F5 Loar. i expect the A models all were .

[eightmoremiles]

In my opinion, the tap tuning process, as utilized by Gibson, was strictly for quality control. All new instruments sounded alike, more or less. It has nothing to do with the quality of the sound made by the instrument, and certainly has no predictive value for volume of sound generated.
Also, consider that tuning standard frequencies were different in 1924 than today, and that the string construction and composition was vastly different.
You can tap tune your instrument case, if you want, and modify it to achieve whatever pitch you like. And put a label on it.

[sgarrity]

Also, consider that tuning standard frequencies were different in 1924 than today, and that the string construction and composition was vastly different.

Roger brought this up at a short building workshop recently. It wasn't until the 1970s that A440 was standardized. He said he'd tried tuning them to the original ( can't remember what it was in 1923, A430ish??) and said they sound much better at A440.

[re simmers]

I ould assume we would not be in tune with the old 78's, or even LP's prior to the '70's?

Bob

[Mandolin Mick]

Monroe said the ghost note was a Bb. That's what the recording session proved.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote - " an overtone was heard on Monroe's Mandolin that he had been claiming was there for years...." This 'Ghost note' refered to above was apparently ( so i've heard tell ) caused by one of B.M.'s E strings getting caught momentarily under the end of a raised fret. I think that this is refered to on the "Father of Bluegrass" DVD,but i've heard Tim O'Brien state that this was the possible cause of the weird note on some DVD or other,
Ivan

[evanreilly]

The dissonance that Ivan refers to is found in the second break of 'Blue Grass Ramble', where one of Bill's E strings catches under the 15th fret. Bill left the sound in the released cut of the tune.
That is quite different from the resonant frequency of the instrument.

[Ken Waltham]

True, Evan.
The ghost note Bill always claimed was there, and was proven by the recording studio, was a Bb.

[Mandoist]

Charlie was correct...Monroe's mando was highly resonant in "E".
For whatever reason, the resonance of instruments (especially mandos) is something I've always focused on. Bill's was always noticeably resonant in "E" -- whether the chord was hit or the "E" string was noted. A bit less after it's reconstruction, but still noticeably resonant in "E". It also had a killer 'pop' on the "F" & "C" chords.