Saplings or seeds?

**John Bertotti** · May-14-2010, 6:12pm

I have several acres I would like to get some wod planted on. I love colorado blue spruce andy other must have srpuce I should plant? Also does anyone have some know curly maple around they can collect some of the airlplane seeds from for me? I know that isn't the right term but I think you guys get the picture. I have had good luck starting them into small saplings but all the one I come across are just plain unfigured maple trees. I would liek to hedge my bets and get some seeds from some known curly maple trees? Thanks John

**John Arnold** · May-14-2010, 8:41pm

Even if curly maple is caused by genetics, planting the seed from a known curly maple would not assure the production of another curly maple. We are talking sexual reproduction here.
However, if it is genetic, you should be able to get a curly maple by cloning (grafting).

**John Bertotti** · May-14-2010, 10:20pm

I understand that but it also means that particular tree may be more predisposed to produce a curly sapling so shuld I get bunch of helicopters/airplanes whatever we are calling the little seeds it improves my chance if only a little bit.

**fishtownmike** · May-14-2010, 11:55pm

Most figured woods including curly maple are developed from environmental elements and not genetics. Some believe things like wind stress and insect attack or diseases can develop certain figured grains. There is not a curly maple species or a specific family of maples that are more likely to have some curly maple or not. Many species of trees not only maple can feature curly grain as well as birdseye and spalting. A good tree harvester can sometimes spot what he believes will be a tree with curly grain or other figured woods from years of experienced, Now quilted maple and other woods is developed more from a specific cutting method then anything else...Mike

**John Bertotti** · May-15-2010, 6:44am

I have seen all these arguments but still I am not convinced that the genes do not contribute to the chances of getting some figure.

**big smiley guy** · May-15-2010, 8:54am

Silver leaf and big leaf are the most likely to have quilt or curl and birdseye is generally sugar or black maple. Environment and/or disease seem to be the main causes of figuring though. Are you planning to plant in order to harvest them yourself?

**Gerard Dick** · May-15-2010, 9:31am

If it is genetic the solution would be to graft twigs from a known tree onto saplings and off you go. That is how fruit growers get consistent product. seeds are a roll of the genetic dice.

**John Bertotti** · May-15-2010, 10:33am

Wel I am in SD now so it is a very open place. I have 5.5 acres. I doubt they would be ready to harvest while I am here but in the future someone wil have some good stuff. High winds here put a lot of trees under stress but I have yet to see figure in them. I don't know that any grafts would survive a trip here and I have nothing to graft to at the moment. I just want to get some going and as I see or don't see figure I will thin the herd to suit. I hope to have a nice little figured grove in the next 25 or 30 years. I also have colorado blue srpuce already growing nd will be plnting more. And just for eating some black and raspberries and some grapevines. But that is besides the point. I think you see what i want to accomplish. Should I get to an area with some saplings I can transplant I will but for now this is all I have to go on that I know will get some trees going.

Has anyone done tests on figured wood to look for different trees disease or insects or mold etc.. that would be present in a figured tree but not in a nonfigured tree?

**John Bertotti** · May-15-2010, 10:35am

I am not saying it is 100% genetic just that I think some genes are more predisposed to it. I could be wrong, I am no genetisist. Just a country boy whp grew up in the river bottoms of the Missippi and Cedar rivers.

**Soundfarmer Pete** · May-15-2010, 10:47am

I may be barking up the wrong tree here but I had the impression that trees that were grown for an even figure were carefully managed and "whiskered" (at least in the old days of Italian violin making - Sacconi, Secrets of Stradivari).
CheeryBye

**Soundfarmer Pete** · May-15-2010, 12:10pm

Originally Posted by Soundfarmer Pete

I may be barking up the wrong tree here but I had the impression that trees that were grown for an even figure were carefully managed and "whiskered" (at least in the old days of Italian violin making - Sacconi, Secrets of Stradivari).
CheeryBye

Just been put in my place when discussing this with Wifey (who knows a bit about trees)!
She reckons the stripes in maple and sycamore are due to the trees water management system.
She also reckons that "birdseye" is due to trimming.
Funny old things trees!

**Dale Ludewig** · May-15-2010, 12:41pm

I'm not sure about maple but it is my understanding that large crowned trees that are not if a grove and subject to a lot of bending by the wind develop "shake", where the growth rings will separate and this won't necessarily show up until after the wood is dried and milled. I've dealt with it in a bunch of walnut. The lumber is virtually worthless. Just a consideration...

**John Bertotti** · May-15-2010, 12:55pm

Yep I have heard this that is why I want to start a bunch at one. Which will be surrounded by bigger Colorao blue spruce kind of a nursery tree in this case for blocking a lot of wind.

**Paul Hostetter** · May-15-2010, 1:29pm

Originally Posted by John Bertotti

I have seen all these arguments but still I am not convinced that the genes do not contribute to the chances of getting some figure.

Then why are you wasting time hammering this topic here, where there's no one giving (or qualified to give) you direct, solid, scientific information? Find some qualified field biologists at http://sdda.sd.gov/Ag_Services/Agron...m/default.aspx who might be able to explain why it's the case that only 4% of South Dakota is forested, and why certain species of trees live naturally in some places but don't tend to do well in others.

**John Bertotti** · May-15-2010, 1:48pm

I just wanted to find someone who might have acces to some maple seeds from a tree that has exhibited some figure that's all. The topic grew. Enough noe one has acces to some seed from know figured maples then I'm doen. No more hammering. bye

**John Arnold** · May-15-2010, 3:04pm

who might be able to explain why it's the case that only 4% of South Dakota is forested,

Easy. Not enough rainfall.

She also reckons that "birdseye" is due to trimming.

Nope. The 'eyes' are buds under the bark, so there is nothing to trim. The best theory is that it is from trees that are in the dense shade, and the budding is one mechanism to compensate.

**Spruce** · May-15-2010, 3:39pm

Originally Posted by fishtownmike

Most figured woods including curly maple are developed from environmental elements and not genetics.

I'd bet my house against that statement....

I can cite many examples of how the curly gene has been transmitted to it's offspring genetically, and I am in the process of growing (I hope--it's a little early to tell) curly maple trees as we speak...

Find a good curly maple tree and do a little air layering to get some curly offspring...

**fishtownmike** · May-15-2010, 3:53pm

If its so cut and dry Spruce that genetics are involved or the main factor and your willing to bet the house why do you need to hope?...Mike

**Mandobart** · May-15-2010, 4:19pm

About the Colo. Blue Spruce - Is this used as a tonewood? I've seen lots of Sitka, Engelman, various Euro spruce, Doug Fir and of course Western Red Cedar but never Colorado Blue used as a tonewood. I took down a ~45 yr old blue spruce on my prop about 5 years ago. Asked a local luthier if he wanted the wood. He said no one uses blue spruce for instruments. I can tell you they are a pain in the yard; dropped needles are like cactus, lower/interior branches die off and require lots of thinning. I'd try something else in SoDak; either a good tone wood or for aethetics, Ponderosa or Austian Black Pine.

**John Bertotti** · May-15-2010, 4:54pm

The colorado blue is used in the tree rows here. The area can support trees but this is the dust bowl. Most trees have been planted here. I would venture a guess to say a lot of the land here was chiseld but the glaciers during the last iceage. Just a guess. I would love to have some lodge pole pine or ponderosa pine. I'm not sure the ponderosa would do well here but it may. I love pine but would like some hardwoods as I think they are in more danger.

Spruce what is air layering?

**John Arnold** · May-15-2010, 6:31pm

About the Colo. Blue Spruce - Is this used as a tonewood?

Yes. Don Musser has cut it for instruments. It is very similar to Engelmann.

why do you need to hope?

'Hoping' is when you plant seeds. Even if you have no understanding of sexual reproduction and recessive genes, I am sure you have seen two red-headed parents have a black-headed child.

**peter.coombe** · May-16-2010, 6:27pm

I think Spruce is probably right on this one. Some figure is produced by localised environmental effects on a tree, but I have seen some examples of trees where the figured wood is consistently right through the entire tree. This is in Eucalyptus, not Maple, but the principle is the same. When I say right through the tree I mean in the trunk, and right out to the smallest branches and twigs. I once cut a tree for firewood where the trunk and every single branch and twig big enough to see the grain had the most intense fiddleback figure. I have been told by a timber cutter that he occasionally comes across Blackwood trees that are similar. Environment seems to be the accepted explanation, but I think genetics is the major factor that determines the figure in these sorts of trees. The only way to prove this is to breed the tree.

**Mandobart** · May-16-2010, 11:55pm

Originally Posted by John Bertotti

I'm not sure the ponderosa would do well here but it may. I love pine but would like some hardwoods as I think they are in more danger.

Ok I know this is no longer mando-centric, but I think Ponderosa would do well in a dust bowl climate. It grows in my native land of northern NM where the land is quite high, rocky and dry. It does well in my current home of Eastern WA, where rain is rare, and some winters doesn't snow at all. Ponderosa thrive on the east dry slopes of the Cascades and foothills of the Rockies here.

**Spruce** · May-17-2010, 10:05am

Originally Posted by Mandobart

About the Colo. Blue Spruce - Is this used as a tonewood?

Yep...
Very Engelmann-esque...

Originally Posted by fishtownmike

If its so cut and dry Spruce that genetics are involved or the main factor and your willing to bet the house why do you need to hope?

Well, there's a lot of difference between knowing how an internal combustion engine works, and actually building one...

**Dfyngravity** · May-17-2010, 10:37am

Originally Posted by fishtownmike

Most figured woods including curly maple are developed from environmental elements and not genetics. Some believe things like wind stress and insect attack or diseases can develop certain figured grains. There is not a curly maple species or a specific family of maples that are more likely to have some curly maple or not. Many species of trees not only maple can feature curly grain as well as birdseye and spalting. A good tree harvester can sometimes spot what he believes will be a tree with curly grain or other figured woods from years of experienced, Now quilted maple and other woods is developed more from a specific cutting method then anything else...Mike

Things in the environment such as wind, movement in soils or even too much snow causes reaction wood. Figuring of wood such as curly or birds eye is completely different. Reaction wood is a result of environmental stresses. The reaction wood forms above or below the bend or part of the tree/plant that is stressed and either pulls or pushes it up. Usually, reaction wood is not really desirable because you have to treat it differently because it breaks op the uniformity in grain of the rest of the tree/plant. It also reacts to moisture differently too which again isn't something you necessarily want.