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Thread: Trills?

  1. #1
    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Trills?

    Hi folks, I was just wondering what the usual technique is for trilling on the mandolin. On tenor guitar I get acceptable trills by a combination of picking and hammer-ons but – (and this just might be because my fingers are weak) – mandolin hammer-ons are so much lower in volume that this technique doesn't seem to transfer.

    A lot of these classical folks can do fantastic trills- are they giving each note a stroke of the pick? Moreover, I was trying to play along a bit on YouTube with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlE53ouKR2Q and thanks to baroque pitch I had to struggle along in F#- are the strings more slack on baroque-tuned mandolins, and does that facilitate a hammer-on trill method?

    -Trevor

  2. #2

    Default Re: Trills?

    Quote Originally Posted by SincereCorgi View Post
    A lot of these classical folks can do fantastic trills- are they giving each note a stroke of the pick?

    In short: yes. It is not your fingers that are "weak", Trevor; don't be so hard on yourself. It's the instrument, hence of course its "standard" technique of pick-every-note-you-want-to-hear.

    I must confess that I, as composer, have in fact used a left-hand-ONLY ornament here and there. That said, this is more of an exception than the rule.

    I believe that Sevcik (illustrious violin pedagogue of old) has written THE book on developing trills-- John C., Richard W., Eric, correct me if I'm wrong. Practicing such material --painful as it may be at times-- can work WONDERS. Eventually, that is.

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Trills?

    I confirm myself: Otakar Sevcik, Preparatory Trill Studies, Op. 7, No. 1, readily available-- and ready to give tendonitis to the best!

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

  4. #4

    Default Re: Trills?

    To trill well you must have a good tremolo (mesured). There are lots of little exercises both written out iamd what one can do just improvising. From the violin studies there are examples in Kreutzer, Svecik, Fiorillo, that are very good. However, Pettine has probably the best written out studies on the technique of the trill in his volume on plectrum mechanism. I also like one of the Munier studies. There might be some muscle development for the left hand but the trick is really to stay relaxed and focus on coordination of the two hands. Again, the tremolo must be perfect or you can't really get very far with the trill.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Trills?

    Advice above all seems sound. Something that also helps me is to focus on the left hand. Keeping the left hand neat, the right easily follows.

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    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trills?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Walz View Post
    To trill well you must have a good tremolo (mesured). There are lots of little exercises both written out iamd what one can do just improvising. From the violin studies there are examples in Kreutzer, Svecik, Fiorillo, that are very good. However, Pettine has probably the best written out studies on the technique of the trill in his volume on plectrum mechanism. I also like one of the Munier studies. There might be some muscle development for the left hand but the trick is really to stay relaxed and focus on coordination of the two hands. Again, the tremolo must be perfect or you can't really get very far with the trill.
    And I suppose it's been asked, but: is there any place I could get those Munier or the Pettine studies? Surely somebody ought to be selling .pdfs of them by now.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Trills?

    I have all of them, of course... but the Pettine studies are still availble (as far as I know) from Pettine's son. I have no idea about Munier but could make some sort of arrangement for you if the studies are no longer published by someone. Contact me PM.

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    Default Re: Trills?

    Our Cafe member Michael Reichenbach has been so kind to include the Munier tutor in his website:

    www.mandoisland.de

    Click "Kostenlose Noten" (free sheet music) and enjoy!

    Arto

  9. #9

    Default Re: Trills?

    I also donated the full 7-volume set of Pettine's method to OSU's music library, which should be available through academic libraries via inter-library loan.

  10. #10
    Registered User SincereCorgi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trills?

    Thanks very much everybody, especially for the links to the online Munier method.

    This trill difficulty has actually made me decide to completely relearn my left-hand thumb position, aiming for something more properly violin-like and Aonzian. Shockingly, this improves tone and lessens hand pain considerably (this might be just because I'm forced to slow down so much), although I feel like I'm really scrunching to play the most nut-ward notes on the E string...

    -Trevor

  11. #11

    Default Re: Trills?

    Quote Originally Posted by SincereCorgi View Post
    ...aiming for something more properly violin-like...
    Yup. That's the way to go. As for e.g. F, F#, etc. in First Position (on the E-course), it's just a matter of approaching the string with the tippy-tips of your fingers, bending the joints appropriately. As a matter of fact, I would say that doing so WITH the aforementioned, violin-like position of the thumb, is rather easier than it would be otherwise. My $0.02, of course...

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trills?

    All very useful advice. I find that the main difficulty with trills on the mandolin is that it requires perfect coordination between fretting hand and picking hand: the left hand must cleanly fret one note on the downstroke and another one on the upstroke. That's quite different from violin, where I believe trills are executed solely with the left hand with a single continuous bowing action by the other hand (at least that's what I understand -- I don't play violin). Thus, while the violin exercises referenced are no doubt useful, they are presumably more difficult to transfer to mandolin than in their native instrument.

    It also occurs to me that the sort of coordination needed for trills is quite similar to (and a useful preparation for) duo style playing. Both require a perfect measured tremolo, as Richard has said above, and tight interlocking of the right hand and left hand actions.

    All very useful concepts to understand -- transferring it to actual playing is a different matter...

    Martin

  13. #13

    Default Re: Trills?

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Jonas View Post
    That's quite different from violin, where I believe trills are executed solely with the left hand with a single continuous bowing action by the other hand (at least that's what I understand -- I don't play violin). Thus, while the violin exercises referenced are no doubt useful, they are presumably more difficult to transfer to mandolin than in their native instrument.
    Yes, Martin, you are absolutely right; in fact, what you say applies (of course) to ALL bowed string instruments. Hence the FAR greater degree of difficulty on the mandolin.

    Now, for the proverbial Saving Grace, I must admit that I find trills on a picked instrument to be a MUCH more brilliant, "energetic" effect than those on a bowed instrument. To wit, I suspect (intuitively, as I am no behavioral scientist) that the listener perceives the effort applied to any specific, physical activity, and evaluates it accordingly. In plain terms, the audience reacts with a natural, uninhibited, pre-cognitive "Wow!" when experiencing that sparkling, scintillating pick-every-note effect of a mandolin trill because it projects energy, effort, reflex acuity, mental presence, dexterity, etc. By way of counter-example, a long (say, whole-note) trill on a violin, pianissimo, is a rather soothing, placid effect.

    I bow out swiftly, before someone really versed in psychoacoustics shows me up, and I earn myself the equally proverbial Egg-on-Face.

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    Default Re: Trills?

    "In plain terms, the audience reacts with a natural, uninhibited, pre-cognitive "Wow!" when experiencing that sparkling, scintillating pick-every-note effect of a mandolin trill because it projects energy, effort, reflex acuity, mental presence, dexterity, etc."

    That´s so wonderfully poetic, Victor! Maybe composers are a breed apart from us common mortals?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Trills?

    Nah... just wind-bags.

    Cheers,

    Victor
    It is not man that lives but his work. (Ioannis Kapodistrias)

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    Registered User Hany Hayek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trills?

    I had to resurrect this thread. I was doing a google search for trill exercises for mandolin and this one came up.
    Although Sevcik is presented as a book for trill exercises for violin, it is used to correct your intonation when starting to play the violin since there are no frets on the instrument. This is a very traditional way of learning. (plus of course it's a trill exercise)
    I totally agree with Martin "the violin exercises referenced are no doubt useful, they are presumably more difficult to transfer to mandolin than in their native instrument."
    In the "Salvator Leonardi methode for banjolin", I found great exercises (at least in my opinion) for trills - which are a perfect co-ordination between left and right hand movement. Exercises # 74 (shake preparatory exercise) and # 142 (exercises for the shake). If any one is interested I'll post these in PDF. Yes these are very similar to Sevcik, but the fact these are written for mandolin makes you feel better (coming from a violin background).
    “Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.”
    ― Victor Hugo

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trills?

    Quote Originally Posted by vkioulaphides View Post
    I suspect (intuitively, as I am no behavioral scientist) that the listener perceives the effort applied to any specific, physical activity, and evaluates it accordingly. In plain terms, the audience reacts with a natural, uninhibited, pre-cognitive "Wow!" when experiencing that sparkling, scintillating pick-every-note effect of a mandolin trill because it projects energy, effort, reflex acuity, mental presence, dexterity, etc. By way of counter-example, a long (say, whole-note) trill on a violin, pianissimo, is a rather soothing, placid effect.
    What you are getting at seems to be that because it takes more effort, and the effort is not lost on the audience, it also takes on more "musical" meaning.

    In an entirely different example I think I see the same thing in jazz, when comparing playing really high notes on a piano, with really high notes on a trumpet. The high notes on the trumpet take more effort and convey more meaning. High notes on the piano are much more dispassionate.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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