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Thread: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

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    Registered User Treble in mind's Avatar
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    Exclamation Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Two caveats regarding travel outside of one's own country with instruments.

    The first one is gleaned from a recent Fretboard Journal article by John Thomas. It came up in discussion prior to the CMSA convention in Montreal.

    The CITES Treaty, subscribed to by the US, Canada and, I believe, all of the EU, bans cross-border movement of endangered species. So ok, you say, I won't bring an ivory-billed woodpecker into Canada.

    But no, to us it means that if you have an instrument that contains Brazilian rosewood, tortoise shell, elephant ivory or white (a rare kind of) abalone, that instrument is subject to seizure at the border. AND YOU CAN'T RANSOM IT BACK. (Q: what happens to seized instruments? A vision of border agents sitting around playing some awfully good instruments on their breaks...)

    Important: CITES applies to instruments that you own personally, not just stuff that's for sale. The only out is to get import/export permits from both countries, and that's a bigger hassle than most of us are up to.

    Realistically, the odds of seizure would appear to be small, meaning terrorism is, ahem, a somewhat more important issue. But I wouldn't cross an international border with an instrument I couldn't afford to lose unless it contained none of the banned materials.


    The second caveat is due to the experience of my wife and I when we crossed from Canada to the U.S. last month. After we told the U.S. border agent that we had nothing to declare (true), he noticed the instrument cases in the back of our CR-V and asked what was in them, how much they were worth and whether we'd purchased them in Canada.

    I told him the truth, always a good idea here. He believed me (honest face, I guess), but gave a warning: since we hadn't declared the instruments, if we had gotten an agent on a bad day and couldn't prove a negative, i.e., that we HADN'T bought them in Canada, they could have been seized, just like CITES stuff can be seized. However unlike the CITES example, he told us that goods seized for this reason could be subsequently retrieved by paying duty and fines. Still, I don't even want to imagine the hassle (and cost!) of that scenario.

    Then he gave us a sensible piece of advice, after which I slapped my forehead for not thinking of it earlier: before going across the border into another country, stop at the U.S. Border Patrol office and register your instruments. Doing so is free and will protect you when you reenter the U.S.. with them.

    I have no idea if this is the way to do it if you're a citizen of another country, say a Canadian bringing instruments into the U.S., and the complexities of international law and treaties are way beyond my pay grade, but this sounded like good advice, and we will follow it from now in.

    If anyone here KNOWS more about these issues, I for one would be grateful if you would post on the topic. Thanks.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Let me attempt to keep this thread on track and keep it from being locked down like that last thread that dealt with this subject. If you have any real information to add to this thread, experiences, knowledge of the law, other related web information, etc. please post it. If you simply feel like expressing your outrage at the laws and politics of it all or desire that everyone know your opinion on the subject please don't post. It would be good if we could actually get some real information on this subject on the board.
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    Registered User Treble in mind's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Amen, Mike. That's why I capitalized "KNOWS".

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    For the past 10 yrs, I've worked a couple times a year on 1-2 wk assignments on cruise ships (not as a musician) to/from Europe, Caribbean, Mexico/South America, Canada, and always have taken a mandolin with me (either vintage Gibson, Lyon&Healy, D'Angelico, or Italian bowlback). Although I must clear customs at the airports or sea ports, I have never had a problem--never been asked for any documentation, etc., even though I now realize (in view of recent discussion of CITES) that some of these instruments have had the prohibited materials. However, I ALWAYS bring a copy of my original purchase receipt, just in case.

    I suspect that a bigger problem, now that airlines charge for checked baggage and are more vigilant about carry-on items, will be size limitations. When I've gone to CMSA conventions, I've brought both a bowlback mandola and a mandolin, in a tennis bag, as my only carry-on, and never had a problem until returning from Montreal at last month's CMSA. At Montreal's airport, the check-in agent (not the gate agent) insisted that the tennis bag did not meet carry-on size requirements (he WAS correct)--but when I then removed the cased instruments, he insisted that either one was also too large for carry-on. Fortunately, while in line for customs clearance, I tore off the baggage check tags, and proceeded, without ANY notice, to clear customs and carry on two cased instruments. My lesson was that I won't attempt to carry on more than 1 instrument in the future. BTW, the mando was in a small, simple case (not the big Calton), but I suspect it, alone, may have been 1-2 inches longer than the permitted size.

    Although I was paranoid enough on this last Canadian trip to not bring instruments with CITES prohibited materials, I don't think that would have been an issue. Clearing Customs into Canada, though, was a huge ordeal: they did everything short of strip-searching me, including sounding the cases for false bottoms or compartments, but never looked twice at the INSTRUMENTS. And I'm white Caucasian, with short hair, and was dressed conservatively.

    In summary, I'd recommend: 1. Carry a receipt or similar proof that the instrument was purchased before entering the country, 2. Bring your instrument carry-on in the smallest possible case, 3. Don't expect to carry on more than 1, even tho oversized tennis bags have worked in the past, and 4, Be prepared for the worst, regardless of how meek/conformist/conservative you may appear.

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    Phylum Octochordata Mike Bromley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Interestingly, if you fly, and carry a mandolin into the cabin, Canada Customs regards a mandolin as 'personal property' like a purse or a camera. They didn't bat an eye when I brought Champ home from Totoland. If you drive, on the other hand, the registry card is very necessary.

    Something about mandos, I guess. Innocent little creatures so often blamed for being ukuleles.
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    Registered User Chip Booth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    I will be driving into Canada from the States next week for a series of concerts. I plan to take several valuable instruments and other gear, none of which are old, however. I welcome any advice and particulars other travelers have to offer about how to make sure there are no issues with them.

    The OP mentioned registering your instruments, is this done at the border as you cross or something that needs to be dealt with ahead of time?

    Would a newer Gilchrist (standard woods, maple, spruce, ebony fingerboard) be likely to have any materials not CITES friendly?

    Chip
    Last edited by Chip Booth; Nov-13-2008 at 5:55pm.

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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    I contacted Don MacRostie in regards to this, (copied him the post) since he is building me a mando. He replied that he had recently sent a mando to Canada with no problems and that there was nothing used in his constuction that is on the banned list. I carried a Calton cased mando to the Monroe mandocamp in Sept and had no problem whatsoever crossing borders, no one seemed to give it any notice at all. The last few years I've made several trips into the U.S. and into several European countries with no problems. I notice that, in general, people seem to violate or at least push the limits on what they are allowed to carry on the plane, perhaps this can lead to problems. I carry on only my mando and a "man"bag with books and camera, and never have any troubles.

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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    By the way, Chip, what part of Canada are you visiting?

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    Registered User Chip Booth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Mike, I'll be performing with Bruce Innes and the Original Caste in High River and Spruce Grove, Alberta. That's your neck of the woods right? We'll be at the Horizon Stage Performing Arts Centre on Saturday the 22cnd. Come by and say hello!

    Chip

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    I'll second what Matt said re.carrying a copy of your original purchase receipt. I had a run in with the UK customs on returning from my last trip to the USA. I'd declared a few things,most of which i wasn't charged for,but he did take a decided interest in my Banjo,which in it's case, i'd placed to one side. As it happened,i'd had the receipt in my wallet for 6 years,since i bought it. I was able to satisfy the guy that i hadn't bought it in the USA. The recepit was for " One Stelling Bellflower Banjo & case". What i didn't tell him was that the case that he saw,was a brand new Mark Leaf case that i bought at the IBMA trade show in Owensboro,which cost me $500 US. Maybe it was dishonest & i should have declared it,but seeing as how the UK government took 30% of my salary every month in income tax,i reckoned they'd had enough of my cash. Please note that i am NOT advocating trying to break any laws here.The penalties can be terminally severe such as the confiscation of the item (s) in question. If the customs guy had asked me re.the Banjo case, i would have told him that it was a new one,but he was satisfied ,so i just let it be,
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    Phylum Octochordata Mike Bromley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Booth View Post
    Mike, I'll be performing with Bruce Innes and the Original Caste in High River and Spruce Grove, Alberta. That's your neck of the woods right? We'll be at the Horizon Stage Performing Arts Centre on Saturday the 22cnd. Come by and say hello!

    Chip
    Two Mikes from Oilberta, one of whom won't be able to come to High River. I'm usually a regular around those parts....dang. I would have liked to see tha Original Caste for sure.

    I don't know which crossing you are using, Chip, but if it's Sweetgrass/Coutts Montana-Alberta from Interstate 15, They's a tad strict about stuff, as I recall. Best have your documentation.
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    assuming an instrument has nothing to invoke the CITES treaty - simply crossing a border with your instrument, as described by "treble in mind" (great name!) - would a used instrument, showing age and obvious signs of use, be subject to the same customs declarations as a new instrument?

    ... might be a case of "grime pays."

    some players have family instruments - passed from one generation to the next. how does one go about proving that?

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    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Check this out, it tells the story pretty well:

    http://www.bluegrasswales.org/CITES.htm

    I am interested in the information if new musical instruments like the Martin D 28 Authentic and such are being sold as exempt from the CITES treaty.

    Chip, your Gilchrist is not endangered, methinks. But that´s just one instrument.
    Olaf

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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    I am a former Customs Officer with 27 years experience and plenty of CITES dilemnas under my belt. All British Commonwealth countries (inter alia Canada, Australia and New Zealand) are similar as is the USA. HOWEVER beware the UK where things are in a state of flux because of some contradictions between Commonwealth and EU requirements.

    An easy one - elephant ivory is blanket banned but antiques (generally considered 100 years or older) are exceptions. PROVENENCE - is the item in question a genuine work of art or of ethnographic interest? Mammoth Ivory scrimshaw? Just have it documented.

    I have a Di Giorgio classical guitar from Brazil, it has a solid forest rosewood fretboard as do '60's and earlier sratocasters. My guitar is clearly marked 1979, I wouldn't hesitate to take it abroad. Carry receipts and take 15 minutes earlier to register your instrument with the airport Customs Office. If it is impounded for any reason on arrival at a foreign port insist that it be returned to your home country (at your expense). Don't take no from a baggage examination officer stand your ground and demand to see a supervisor - they are generally more knowledgble and flexible.

    DO NOT TAKE AN ARMADILLO backed Charango or turtle backed ukelele around - for too many reasons (quarantine and wildlife conventions) you will lose it.

    If you think the Customs Officer is off his game consider this. It's all about risk assessment, is it worth imposing a duty, tax or GST/VAT on the item concerned? Will it cost more to complete the paper work than what it wil realise in revenue?

    Do you have something 'new' you purchased? If you have played it and packed it a few times - rest with an easy conscience, in Customs terms it is no longer new.

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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    I always figure if something bad can happen it will happen to me.

    I don't cross borders with anything that has CITES materials. I declare (register) everything I take with me and I take documentation as well. A receipt that shows not only when and where purchased but also the materials it is made of can be quite valuable. When I took my rosewood-backed guitar I brought along the hang tag that specifically stated "Indian Rosewood" in the materials list.

    You just never know when someone is going to decide to push the Customs inspectors about CITES or anything else. That Customs guy will love you if you have the paperwork so he is covered.

    Oh yeah. The new Martin guitars are made with Brazilian Rosewood that has been in the US since well before the ban. Not a great idea to take one outside the US, you'll probably get away with it but do you really want to chance it?

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    Better late than never walt33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Hmm. Two years ago, I stopped at U.S. customs on my way into Quebec, at Lacolle, to register my new Larrivee guitar. The agent wanted to know how much it cost (under $800). He said something to the effect, don't bother, we're only interested in people bringing in expensive instruments.

    Years ago when I routinely brought a lot of photo gear back and forth across the border, I registered everything, even though it was obviously not new.

    Should I register my (cheap) instruments anyway?

    Walt

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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Quote Originally Posted by walt33 View Post
    Should I register my (cheap) instruments anyway?

    Walt

    Ten minutes or so at the border registering stuff pales by comparison with all the haggling & ill will caused by a grumpy customs shakedown...

    ...I've been across too many times in a car.
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Quote Originally Posted by walt33 View Post
    He said something to the effect, don't bother, we're only interested in people bringing in expensive instruments.
    Walt
    Then you say "Could you put that in writing for me?"

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    Registered User Timbofood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Hey, I'd register it, I have never travelled with anything like this but, it certainly seems that 10 minutes on the way "out" beats several hours of shennenigans coming home. Thanks for the "registration information"
    I think that's how you spell it(?)
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Quote Originally Posted by MandOz View Post
    I am a former Customs Officer with 27 years experience and plenty of CITES dilemnas under my belt. All British Commonwealth countries (inter alia Canada, Australia and New Zealand) are similar as is the USA. HOWEVER beware the UK where things are in a state of flux because of some contradictions between Commonwealth and EU requirements.

    Wow, there's an address I didn't expect to see here - I went through high school in "the Marsh" back in the late '60's.

    Since you have the knowledge in this area perhaps you could answer this one. Is there a date before which restrictions on timber, animal products etc wouldn't apply? I understand that preventing movement of Brazilian rosewood, ivory etc in new manufacture minimizes the value of these commodities for future harvesting, but if an instrument was made 20, 50, 100 years ago how can confiscating that help current conservation?

    (just curious, none of my instruments contain anything exotic )

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    We were doing so well. I'm going to ask again that we include only information that pertains to the original post. Please refrain from interjecting questions that will certainly cause this thread to be shut down. It matters not what your opinions are on the subject or if adhering to the law will save anything. That's not what the thread is about. If you have knowledge that pertains to the question please post it. If not then enjoy the read.
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Sorry Mike, that was not intended to be contentious or controversial. I am genuinely interested to know how the law is applied and I thought that information was relevant to the original post. Delete my post if you prefer.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    You were good up to:

    "I understand that preventing movement of Brazilian rosewood, ivory etc in new manufacture minimizes the value of these commodities for future harvesting, but if an instrument was made 20, 50, 100 years ago how can confiscating that help current conservation?"

    That gets outside what the thread is about and is going to take it where it doesn't want to go. Thus far there is good information here for all of us. If we start debating the politics the thread will die.
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    Never thought of declaring my Wee Travel Mandolin, as a bicycle tourist, it went in the overhead compartment ,

    the rest of the kit in the Cargo Hold.
    as it was not made of any of those materials, maybe with the possibility of the fingerboard being rosewood
    no notice was taken,.. but It was to NL and UK, high volume airports ..

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taking Instruments To Other Countries: Caveats

    From what I am reading here, you are not safe even if you leave your rosewood home and only travel with instrument containes no CITES banned material. Customs doesn't have to prove that your instrument has banned materials, they only have to show that you can't prove that it doesn't.

    Is that a correct interpretation?
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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