Scottish Irish Whats the Difference?

[JeffD]

Apparently there is no evidence to support the case for Paleolithic human settlement in Ireland... though a herd of prehistoric mandocellos were recently found preserved in a peat bog in Tommervarney... so well preserved in fact that the plectrums that last fallen in their sound holes were still to be found in their bellys

Close enough.

[M.Marmot]

I hope Mr. Marshall won't be too disgruntled that i embellished on his mandosaurus joke, it just seemed fitting given the circumstances

[JeffD]

I hope Mr. Marshall won't be too disgruntled that i embellished on his mandosaurus joke, it just seemed fitting given the circumstances

I thought it was great. Both MM's and yours.

The joke stays in your head, like a good tune, and you just gave us your version of the tune.



"I think the cheese is finally off the cracker."

[Bren]

>David, can you please cite for me, preferably with a YouTube example, a piece where The Dubliners use a mandolin?
It might be on Dagger's YouTube links but there are recordings of Dubliners playing "The Croppy Boy" with what sounds like two mandolins backing and also Barney playing Chief O'Neill on mandolin.
Earliest I remember mandolin in Irish music is The Clancy Bros on "Leaving of Liverpool", possibly Mike Seeger on mandolin.

There are so many mandolins in Scottish music now that it's hard to think of it as being more common in Irish. Sometimes it seems like every Shetlander or Orcadian plays mandolin at least as a second or third instrument.
I've heard it said that the islanders' fondness for mando is down to the fact that you can play it lying on your back in the bunk of a fishing boat and it's less of a hassle and a risk to take offshore than a fiddle.

After all, isn't the portability and adaptability of a mandolin one of its great appeals? And no special sitting position required, no risk of taking someone's eye out at close quarters (assuming you trim your string ends).

[smsuryan]

I have a scottish influence in my playing after a little laphroaig...

[Bertram Henze]

I have a scottish influence in my playing after a little laphroaig...

How could I forget that! I have run out of Laphroaig recently and was wondering why my playing starts to sound Irish - thanks for the heads-up

[M.Marmot]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1203443425133#

Well whaddya know!

Heres a link to a series discussing the different regional Irish styles, from the good folks of TG4.

Alors, as of late i've been scouring the net for relevent documentaries and sites to further explore this subject. As usual TG4 have a fine array of programmes showcasing Irish music, Geantrai, Ceird an Cheoil, various one offs focussing on musicians, a very strong majority of which are representative of the Donegal traditions, and Canuinti Cheoil, the series linked here above. I found the latter to be well worth the watch and i plan to re-watch them with an ear to the different regional ways of playing the same tune.

On that note, i was wondering if any kind folks could direct me to documentaries that deal with Scottish traditional music/musicians?

I'll point out that i am aware of the Transatlantic Sessions with that diamond Aly Bain, and also one with Mr. Bain and one of the Cunningham lads on tour, i am also aware of the Highland (?) Sessions, where a mix of musicians from all over do the rounds, but i'm thinking, that as fine as the music can be on the Session docmentaries, its just a wee bit too produced and not what i'm after, which would be programmes focusing on the history of Scottish traditional music/musicians, or even a Scottish version of Geantrai where the performers are not nipped from the rosters of folk-trad recording stars.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Dagger Gordon]

Maybe this. Haven't watched them myself.

http://www.horogheallaidh.com/en/programman/index.jsp

[Bren]

Try some videos of "Scotland's Music" with Phil Cunningham
They're on YouTube.

Although it doesn't really explain much in the way you're after. The section on Gaelic psalm singing is spooky and essential.

I'd have to say Scotland's music is overshadowed on the world stage by Irish - you almost have to live here to get any idea of the breadth of it. Even in Scotland there is, or was when I arrived in the late 70s, more access to recorded trad Irish music, so many Scottish players of a certain generation seem more influenced by Irish LPs and CDs than Scottish.

[Bertram Henze]

To add to the width of music associated with Scotland, check out the Dutch band Rapalje. They have a genuine Scottish piper (from Scotland), make a point of appearing as archaic and bloodthirsty as possible but take nothing really seriously. Their renditions of Drunken Sailor and Bog Down in the Valley are priceless.

[M.Marmot]

Maybe this. Haven't watched them myself.

http://www.horogheallaidh.com/en/programman/index.jsp

Thank you for the link but it weems this is another all star extravaganza, with musicians from all over the world; saying that though, it is a pretty crop that they have picked so i'll still probably get about to watching them sometime.

[M.Marmot]

I'd have to say Scotland's music is overshadowed on the world stage by Irish - you almost have to live here to get any idea of the breadth of it. Even in Scotland there is, or was when I arrived in the late 70s, more access to recorded trad Irish music, so many Scottish players of a certain generation seem more influenced by Irish LPs and CDs than Scottish.

I might be hasty in saying this but, i am coming to the conclusion that BBC Scotland does not do half near enough to promote the traditional music when compared to the likes of TG4 in Ireland which have produced some fine documentaries and series on the subject. Saying that though, TG4 also comes out streets ahead on this matter when compared to Ireland's national broadcaster RTE, which seems to have reigned in its traditional music appreciation to the odd infrequent documentary and the airing of archive footage.

I do appreciate any presentation of these musics but i'll admit that theres that side of me that gets turned off when its limited to the top recording artists in the field. Thats why i appreciate programmes like TG4's Geantrai where local musicians, and many of them are fine players in their own rights, have a chance to be aired.

As for the Irish influence... It does seem that the Planxty/Bothy Band model of playing has been sweeping the boards internationally in terms of traditional, and we'll use that term loosely here, music performance. I can see why they were both electrifying groups that managed to capture the rush and pulse of the source materials without the trappings and excess of a lot of the folk-rock acts of the time. In a sense they have come to shadow the field with their legacy...

[Dagger Gordon]

Try some Youtubes of the Blas Festival held around the Highlands in September.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I20QirBmpVI

[Bertram Henze]

As for the Irish influence... It does seem that the Planxty/Bothy Band model of playing has been sweeping the boards internationally in terms of traditional, and we'll use that term loosely here, music performance. I can see why they were both electrifying groups that managed to capture the rush and pulse of the source materials without the trappings and excess of a lot of the folk-rock acts of the time. In a sense they have come to shadow the field with their legacy...

The Scots had their own groups of that sort at the time, and they have been my own entry-level access: Tannahill Weavers, Silly Wizard, Kentigern. Only much later I got nearer to the more basic concepts, i.e. of how to create the authentic feel with a minimum of technical effort. I would not have been able to make the transition directly (coming from listening to Jethro Tull records), so I owe them.
And I think all the forms of playing have their neuk where they do good. It's all real. Tradition is all about development everybody can participate in, like an open source community of music. And the contrasting worlds of keeping strictly formal vs. trying what goes exist in both countries (think: a CCE contest vs. Moving Hearts, a SRS vs. Deaf Shepherd), only the differences between the countries are more conspicuous in formal custom.

It should not be too easy to maintain differences, by the way, just because there is a narrow stretch of sea between - in the old days of celtic Britain water was the easiest traffic route and should be viewed as an element of connection rather than separation. And a lot went over that connection both ways.

Anyone who wants to hear maximum basic Scotland should listen to unaccompanied waulking songs. When I heard that the first time, I involuntarily thought of Indians dancing around a campfire to attract buffalo. Modern performances are open to male listeners, other than the original (waulking was pure women's work, done with the naked legs while sitting on the floor - no men allowed).

[M.Marmot]

And I think all the forms of playing have their neuk where they do good. It's all real. Tradition is all about development everybody can participate in, like an open source community of music. And the contrasting worlds of keeping strictly formal vs. trying what goes exist in both countries (think: a CCE contest vs. Moving Hearts, a SRS vs. Deaf Shepherd), only the differences between the countries are more conspicuous in formal custom.

It should not be too easy to maintain differences, by the way, just because there is a narrow stretch of sea between - in the old days of celtic Britain water was the easiest traffic route and should be viewed as an element of connection rather than separation. And a lot went over that connection both ways.

Watching some of the documentaries only brings home the constant communication between the two countries, especially with regards the music of the north of Ireland and Donegal. It was driven home again and agin in certain programmes that for Irish people of a certain generation seasonal migration to Scotland for work was the norm and that there was a great interchange of musics and cultures between the two countries.

I was also unexpectedly reminded of this musical migration just the other day when listening to an album of songs by a man from the north of england, Tommy Armstrong. Mr. Armstrong, 1848 - 1920, also known as 'The Pitman Poet', was a prolific songwriter
and would often set his lyrics on existing folk tunes, a surprising number of which i knew from Irish traditional playing... it was more than a bit amusing to find yourself whistling along to a hundred year old song you never heard before only to realise you full well knew the melody already. Again the reason for this was that there was an influx of Irish immigrants to feed the growing mining industry.

http://www.pitmanpoet.derwentside.or...yArmstrong.htm

The interesting thing for me is just how this constant mixing of cultures not only results in a sharing of musics and motifs but also how some elements rise or remain uniquely in some areas, the musical 'accents' so to speak

And thank you, I'll definitely have a look at those waulking songs.

[Hessian]

Originally Posted by Bruce Evans
David, can you please cite for me, preferably with a YouTube example, a piece where The Dubliners use a mandolin? They of course have always used the tenor banjo by Barney McKenna and the 5 string as early as Luke Kelly, but I am aware of no instances where the mandolin is used. In absence of a YouTube, how about a reference to a record track? Thanks.

Another two songs which feature the mandoline are "the leaving of Liverpool" and "the prodigal son".

[Tosh Marshall]

A band with a mixture of Scots and Irish were Boys of the Lough, which in the early days featured Aly Bain and Dick Gaughan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNyHn...eature=related Their first album is great. For me I always check out the fiddlers as that is a good pointer, from Ireland Martin Hayes and Kevin Burke and from Scotland Aly Bain, Willie Hunter, Tom Anderson and the new generation of Jenna Reid, Catriona MacDonald & Chris Stout and their respective bands Dochas, Blazin Fiddles and Fiddlers Bid. Some great 70's Scottish Folk/Rock bands were the JSD Band, Five Hand Reel, Contraband & Ossian (more details on Nigel Gatherer's site).
I listen to Robbie Shepherd on BBC Radio Scotland to the Scottish Country Dance scene and you would be amazed at how many tunes you know in the sets! http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0079g5m
Betram mentioned Hector the Hero and here's Dagger playing it with Jenna Reid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Woqsh...eature=related

[Bertram Henze]

The interesting thing for me is just how this constant mixing of cultures not only results in a sharing of musics and motifs but also how some elements rise or remain uniquely in some areas, the musical 'accents' so to speak

One difference I have always found is in the lyrics of songs. I don't mean Lowland Scots, that's taken for granted. I mean the way relations between the sexes are described - an Irish song will make generous poetic detours around anything that might be offending, while a Scottish song will simply tell what happens, with most of the biological details explicitly described. Take, for example "A Maid Gaed tae the Mill ane Nicht" (I first heard it on a record of Cilla Fisher and Artie Trezise) - a song like that would be hard to find in Ireland. Another example is "Eppie Morrie" (four and twenty hieland men cam frae the Carron side, they stale awaa Eppie Morrie for she wouldna be a bride...) - I don't have to tell you what that would be called today. Also, the ever recurring theme of the farmer's daughter running away with a beggar, only to return with "bairnies three" years later - never heard that in Ireland.

[Eddie Sheehy]

There were four and twenty maidens at a ball in Inverness,
And when the ball was over there were four and twenty less..

Of course in Ireland we have An Phis Fhliuch... no lyrics required.

[Bertram Henze]

Eddie, I must admit I had to look at the alternative titles of this tune on thesession.org to find out what that means. I read somewhere that the Irish language has many words simply reproducing the sound or acoustic feel of what is described - this is a good example. It makes me wonder if the Irish language is kind of an attic where the Irish people go to do their politically incorrect thinking...

[Dagger Gordon]

Eddie,

That song is called The Ball of Kirriemuir, and is what is usually known as a 'rugby' song - ie out and out filthy with no pretence at sublety or anything else.
The words actually are 'Four and twenty virgins came down from Inverness' (ie going to the ball at Kirriemuir, which is not far from Dundee). The chorus which follows is unprintable.
I never expected to see it mentioned here. I suppose it is a Scottish folk song, but definitely of a particular type and not altogether representative of Scottish music, though I know Burns wrote his Bawdy Ballads and there are plenty of 'coorse' songs around.

There are a lot of songs which are fairly sexually explicit, but often in a 'till the morning they lay as one' type of way, with plenty of them having 'she grew thick aboot the waist'. I suspect that's not only found in Scotland, however.