Breedlove C250/CM, T OM conversion

[recharred]

Hi,

I'm getting prepared to do a conversion of one of these (19.1 scale Breedlove travel guitar, designed to be tuned to A):

http://breedlovemusic.com/index.php?...ort&Itemid=259

to a 5-course 9-string instrument tuned in fifths GDAEB (not unlike the way I tune my Waldzither), and I was hoping some of you all might have some insights about a few details.

I have double checked the string tensions, and I'm confident I can add the three extra strings without increasing the total force on the instrument (since an OM can work at such lower tensions--a set of J72 Mandola strings plus .009s for the high B course actually comes in just under the total tenions of the stock configuration as 6-string, and these tensions are just usable on my Waldzither), and I think there's room enough on the headstock to put the extra machine heads (I don't have the instrument in hand yet, so I will have to check on that later).

My biggest puzzle right now is to figure out how best to rig up the bridge. It's a pinless bridge, so the obvious way to rearrange the strings is to drill new holes at the appropriate places. However, I'm a bit concerned that the guitar's electronics may be in unexpected places, and I don't want to drill into anything unexpected. In particular, there seems to be a dowel or something in the bridge, and I'm not sure what it is or whether it would be safe to drill into it.

Here's a photo of the stock bridge:



Does anyone know if it is safe to drill new holes for the strings right through that center dowel? I'm guessing it's just there as a guide when they install the bridge, but I wanted to check if anyone might have some insights.

Also, if anyone has alternative thoughts about how to do the bridge, I'd be curious to hear them. I've considered adding small pins to use loop end strings over the top of the back of the bridge, but I'm a bit worried this might move the forces on the bridge too much, resulting in pulling it up too much. Any thoughts about whether this arrangement would cause structural problems?

Thanks,

Richard

[LeonEvans]

Hi Richard,

I'd avoid hitting the dowel as you call it. That plug covers the screw that attaches the JLD bridge truss that couples the top to the end block. If you look inside the sound hole of the instrument toward the end pin, you'll see the bridge truss hanging on the inside from the top under the bridge. Here's a diagram of what it looks like:



Regards,

Leon

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Are you sure you want a 19" scale for that octave G? My guess is that a longer scale will have more condifidence and power in the voice.

I installed hundreds of those JDL bridge systems at the factory. Feel free to call me at the shop if you have any questions about them.

j.
www.condino.com

[recharred]

Thanks for the replies. I thought about a trussed bridge, but I checked the specs and figured there wasn't a trussed bridge on these little guys (it wasn't mentioned in their sales pitch). The guitar came today (Fedex on saturday--cool:-) and I confirmed there is no truss on the bridge. However, the "dowel" was indeed a plug/cover for two bolts (unlike the photo I referenced before, this bridge had two of these) and the bolts run right through the top, without any particular support or anything (not even a bridge plate under there that I could see). I'll upload a picture in a little bit. Anyway, I would guess these can't be there for any structural support, but are set up so they can align these parts in the factory a bit more easily. Still, they pose a problem, since I can't just drill through them as I'd hoped.

Given their locations, however, I think I can still carve out a channel for the strings and use the holes in the back that are already there with two strings in each, sort of the way a 6-pin twelve string works. My only worry is whether there will be enough meat left to keep anything from failing under tension, especially since a couple of these strings will be offset.

As for the scale and its impact on the tone of the G string, there is the classic OM trade-off here between tone and playability; plus, it would be hard to go much longer and have that high B string, and I've come to like having that course. I have a nice OM with a 22" scale that sounds fantastic, but my wrist hurts for a week after playing it, which keeps me from playing it. In that sense, my Waldzither (18.5" scale) sounds much better even on the G, because I'm actually making sounds with it :-) If I used that G string a lot, I would be more concerned that it's a little dull at that length (and it had intonation problems as well), but it only really comes up every half dozen tunes, and then only for a couple of notes. I even considered just getting a Mandola, tuning it DAEB, and just reworking my few tunes that ask for that G string. At the end of the day, I think this is the best compromise overall. I'm hoping this will be a little more resonant on the other four courses than the Waldzither (which has a thick top that is braced more heavily than most 12 strings) while keeping the comfortable playing and the just passable G.

Cheers!

[T.J.]

Please do post about your results! I've been considering a 19" 12-string conversion to a six-course mandolin/mandola, tuned E5-A4-D4-G3-C3-F2, and have also thought about using the six-string short-scale Atlas as the basis of a single-strung fifths-tuned mandolin conversion. (As always, the pitch of the highest string/course, in this case E5 at 19", will be thanks to Octave 4 Plus strings, which we fifth-tuned guitar guys here at the Mandolin Cafe have been using to get to those higher notes with much success.)

I'm most interested in hearing how yours turns out....

[recharred]

I'll be sure to follow up in much greater detail next week. Sadly, I won't be able to do much with it in the coming days, since things will be getting extra busy elsewhere in life for awhile, but I will post pictures and clips from the (hopefully by then) completed project later next week. For now, it's very much roughed out, and I'm afraid the bridge will probably always look like a bit of an amateurish kludge unless and until I break down and replace the whole thing. (Anyone know about what it would run to have a pinless bridge like this replaced?)

Anyway, I got the machine heads on, drilled new channels for the bridge, and I managed to do a preliminary cutting on the old nut so I can start experimenting with string gauges before cutting a final nut and saddle. The tone is really quite good--better than I expected in many ways. It has a great resonance and sweetness, intonation is pretty good (despite not having cut a new saddle yet) even with it capoed at the 5th fret (which gives a nice mandolin and mandola range that sounds similar to a decent oval hole), and plays very comfortably.

My only complaint is that it is not nearly as loud as either the Waldzither or my MidMo OM, largely I'm sure because of the low string tensions I'm using. I brought it to my weekly jam with friends last night, however, and they all thought it sounded great and was plenty loud for our session. It's just a trio, and there's no banjo or percussion, so the reduced volume was actually a benefit from their point of view--that MidMo is a cannon, and it really overpowers even the fiddle, while the Waldzither was rather dull sounding on most tunes.

Unsurprisingly, it sounds very guitarish and even jangly with a long sustain like a bouzouki, which is fine for most of what we do, but I'd still like to get it to offer a bit more punch on those tunes where I'm essentially playing a banjo part. Does anyone know if experimenting with different saddle materials (ebony or even maple) is worth trying on a bridge like this? I'm guessing the different materials might filter tones differently and get a more punchy mandolin sound from it, but probably at the cost of volume (which it really can't spare). If anyone has tried different materials for tone and volume on a project like this, I'd love to hear about it.

[T.J.]

The tone is really quite good--better than I expected in many ways. It has a great resonance and sweetness, intonation is pretty good (despite not having cut a new saddle yet) even with it capoed at the 5th fret (which gives a nice mandolin and mandola range that sounds similar to a decent oval hole), and plays very comfortably.

My only complaint is that it is not nearly as loud as either the Waldzither or my MidMo OM, largely I'm sure because of the low string tensions I'm using....

Unsurprisingly, it sounds very guitarish and even jangly with a long sustain like a bouzouki, which is fine for most of what we do, but I'd still like to get it to offer a bit more punch on those tunes where I'm essentially playing a banjo part.

Since I'm very much a fan of the sound of flat-top instruments, oval hole instruments and instruments with strings attached to the bridge, it's probably worth noting that what others define as "punch," I normally hear as a lack of crystalline clarity, as well as a tendency towards no real sustain. Just think of the difference in sound between an archtop guitar and a flat-top guitar; I have never heard an archtop with the same clarity and sustain as the flat-top guitar.

I suspect that your Breedlove will never have the characteristics which will lead to it being "punchy."

Did you string it to be double-strung and with the same total tension as the single-strung original tension? If so, I'd probably be experimenting with it using six single-strung medium gauge strings as my target tension, just to get a bit more pull on it....

[acousticphd]

I applaud your efforts - the same conversion idea has occurred to me several times (with either this guitar or the Tacoma Papoose, both of which use a pinless bridge). I'm glad to see you going ahead and undertaking it.
Would you describe how you drilled new string holes through the bridge, and what tool/device you used? How is it possible to position the drill at the correct angle with the bridge attached to the top?
In my thinking about this, I imagined installing a tailpiece, and running the strings through the bridge to the tailpiece, which would seem to reduce the force trying to lift the bridge.

[recharred]

I applaud your efforts - the same conversion idea has occurred to me several times (with either this guitar or the Tacoma Papoose, both of which use a pinless bridge). I'm glad to see you going ahead and undertaking it.
Would you describe how you drilled new string holes through the bridge, and what tool/device you used? How is it possible to position the drill at the correct angle with the bridge attached to the top?
In my thinking about this, I imagined installing a tailpiece, and running the strings through the bridge to the tailpiece, which would seem to reduce the force trying to lift the bridge.

I'll get some pictures up early next week. Basically, I carved out a little trough to give me something to drill into, aiming for something not unlike this. Then, I drilled the extra holes sideways into the channels that were already there for the other strings. The hardest part of the whole thing was figuring out how to get past the screws noted above.

As I indicated before, the result is perfectly functional but not very professionally done. However, I attribute that to my own inexperience rather than a flaw in the approach. In retrospect, I wish I'd have worried a bit more about the alignment of the string holes in every direction, instead of just focusing on functionality. (You'll see what I mean when I upload a picture.)

Getting the drill at the right angle was far less of a difficulty than I'd anticipated.

I too contemplated adding a tailpiece, which would presumably give a more punchy mandolin sound, but I decided against it on the grounds that the top is almost certainly not braced correctly for forces in that direction. If the builders expect the bridge to be pulling up, that's probably the way to go. Even if it didn't cause structural problems, I doubted it would sound right. (Opinions? Anyone try it?) Also, getting a good break angle at a reasonable action would be tough without resetting the neck angle, which defeats much of the point of converting a ready-made instrument. Finally, the electronics are located right in the way on this particular instrument for that experiment.

For all these reasons, I think T.J. is probably right that it will never be "punchy." Although I have fantasies of an instrument that will do perfectly sweet and outrageously punchy, depending on the strength and location of pick attack, there is an extent to which that is asking too much of an instrument. It is surely more wise to explore how far one can go with an instrument, and then play to its intrinsic character and strengths, than to try to force it into being a second-rate something else. (I think that goes for people too :-) The result I have so far is not at all a second rate OM, but an especially sweet and jangly OM, and I plan to play to that going forward. (I'd love to have an instrument like the Breedlove, but with spruce top and maple back and side to see how much of that sweetness is the bridge and how much is actually the cedar and mahogany construction, but that's another story.)

Next week is spring break, so my time is cleared up in a couple of days. I expect to get a chance to finish it up over the weekend and post pictures and clips soon thereafter.

[recharred]

Well, I still haven't cut the new nut, but everything else is pretty much in place now. I played it at a little benefit show over the weekend, and everyone seemed to like the tone and they thought the volume was OK (although it still seemed a bit quiet to my ears).

Here are some shots of the bridge. First, the stock bridge:



Here's what I did with it:





I managed to let one of the strings on the E course go right over one of the screws by slotting the cap, which led to a much better alignment than my earlier effort to angle the string into on of the other channels. As you can see, it's not a really professional job overall, but it's certainly functional and it looks OK, especially if one doesn't inspect it too closely:





To get a really good looking bridge on it, I'm sure one would have to replace the whole bridge. Since that's pretty significant surgery, I'll wait to see how it grows on me before committing to that. So far, so good.

As they say, proof's in the pudding, so here's some hasty pudding (excuse the occasional slop--still getting used to the slightly different spacing, etc.):

Good King What's His Face
Doon Feathers
Other Bird Parts
Capo on the 5th Fret Makes a Mando
Tom Billy's

The clips were recorded without processing (OK, just a hint of EQ) into Logic with a Shure KSM27 condenser mic panned full left and the onboard electronics panned full right.

All in all, I'm very pleased. We'll see how it suits me in the months ahead, but it seems to have satisfied the itch I had for an instrument that was as comfortable and versatile as my Waldzither, but with a less dull tone. Now, I wish I had something like this with a spruce top and maple back and sides and a floating bridge...MAS knows no bounds ;-)