6/8 Time Puzzles

[billhay4]

How do you play the rhythm in 6/8 time?
Also, how to does one figure the up and down strokes in this time signature?
It's got me stumped. I thought I ask the experts.\
Bill

[Jim Broyles]

There are different ways to play the rhythm for 6/8 time but here is a list of popular songs in 6/8.

[JeffD]

I use fruit sounds.

6/8 jig rhythm to sounds like pineapple pineapple / pineapple pineapple.

Lots of folks like a DUD DUD DUD DUD pick stroke. And it really does sound good. But in my opinion there is nothing wrong with DUD UDU DUD UDU, if you make proper emphasis. I find the second approach easier, and indistinguishable from the first when one gets the rhythm right.

If you are curious about the other fruits, I use

apple apple / apple apple or sometimes watermellon watermelon / watermelon watermelon for most reels

pear banana pear banana / pear banana pear banana for most hornpipes

pineapple pineapple pineapple / pineapple pineapple pineapple for most 9/8 jigs


pineapple apple apple / pineapple apple apple to try get a tango thing going


I'm hungry lets eat.

[Rob Gerety]

I think it is fair to say that the majority of Celtic players use DUD DUD DUD pick strokes for 6/8 time - ie. jigs. Some don't. I use DUD DUD because I feel I am better able to immerse myself in the rhythm of the jig that way and I think my playing sounds better. I'm sure I could do it the other way - but to me it would be more difficult.

[billhay4]

Thanks for the replies.
The song I'm having trouble with is Irish Washerwoman.
Looks like I can pretty much do what I want. The question on rhythm came from my trying to correlate playing rest chop chop on 3/4 time songs to 6/8 time. Still not sure how to carry that over to 6/8 because the chops come so fast. I guess it's practice, practice.
Bill

[Tom C]

Try strumming it. Don't chop it.

"da-da-da / da-da-da / da-da-da / da-da-da"

[mandocrucian]

--x-x-x--x-x-x------- (8th notes of the melody)
=========C========
==B===============
..1 & ah 2 & ah

Count jigs as | 1-&-ah 2-&-ah |.

Simplest: Bass note (kick drum) on the 1, chord strum (snare) on the 2

NH

You could also consult the article on backing up tunes with a mando in The Mandocrucian's Digest issue #24. Tunes used to demonstrate backup options are "Gary Owen" (jig) and "Swinging On A Gate" (reel). There's an instruction CD available with all the stuff (and more) in the article being played.

[JeffD]

Yea I can't see a bluegrass style chop working with jigs anyway.

As an altertative to DUD DUD, or DUD UDU, some celtic players have advocated DUU DUU.

[billhay4]

Thanks for the help, guys.
I didn't mean chop as a bluegrass chop but rather as a strumming of a chord. I kept trying to envision playing this song as a 3/4 waltz variation and I just wasn't getting it. These suggestions will help point me in the right direction.
Bill

[Jim Broyles]

The biggest sounding difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is that if you use all eighth notes, the 3/4 feels like 3 groups of two - DA da/DA da/DA da, and the 6/8 feels like 2 groups of three - DA da da / DA da da. You might notice that as you tap for foot to 6/8, you are probably tapping on the 1 and 4 , making it feel like 2 pulses per measure. This is why the waltz feel doesn't work unless you slow the waltz way down. If you strum down on the first DA, up on the second, down on the third, DOWN AGAIN on the fourth, up on the fifth and down on the sixth and DOWN again on the next first, you'll have it.

[Coffeecup]

The important thing with jigs is to emphasise the 1st and 4th beats. If you're playing chords/rhythm accompaniment DUD DUD is good, as already mentioned, but it's also acceptable to drop the first UD, making it D--DUD. My tutor advocates practicing the rhythm, with strings muted, while watching TV so that it becomes totally subconcious.
The same approach is taken with slip jigs - 9/8 time - DUD DUD DUD.

6/8 = edible elephant
9/8 = elegant edible elephant

[Jim Broyles]

Eeeewwww!

[Rob Gerety]

I suggest listening to jigs for a few days - you'll start to get to get a feel for it.

[EdSherry]

Playing "rhythm mandolin" for jigs is fun, but can be a bit challenging if you're used to reels.

I usually play strums with Dud Udu (with the capitalized letters accented), and will often leave out the second beat (playing D_d Udu with the "_" representing an upward hand motion, to get back into position, but not actually playing anything).

Dud Dud is often preferred for playing single-note jig melodies, but I find it more difficult than Dud Udu when strumming.

As for "sounding it out," I prefer "Pad-dy-O Raf-fer-ty" (or its California variant, "pa-ti-o fur-ni-ture").

[Rob Gerety]

I use DUD DUD when picking single notes and when strumming. I find it is the best way for me to really get that jig feel going strong. It did take a bit to get used to - but now I do it almost effortlessly.

[Barbara Shultz]

I am a firm believer in DUD DUD for pick direction when playing melody. I'm just now branching out to learning rhythm playing on my Octave Mandolin, and yes, DUD DUD is difficult, but is what I aiming for. Generally, I leave out striking the strings in places, but keep my hand going in that rhythm.... so I'll strum D-D DUD D-D DUD, or something like that.

[Rob Gerety]

I do the same thing Barbara - keep the hand moving in the DUD DUD rhythm but strum at air in places to add rhythmic interest, often right after a chord change. Of course I'm usually playing guitar when I play rhythm - I'd love to have an OM.

[Martin Jonas]

It sounds to me like Bill's confusion arises from a perception that 6/8 is somehow "really" the same as 3/4. It isn't. Each measure in 6/8 has only two beats, with each beat played as a triplet (emphasis on the first note of the triplet). In contrast, 3/4 has three beats. Thus, if you want to strum a rhythm accompaniment to a 6/8 tune, you either do two strums per measure, or six, depending on the speed of the tune. Realistically, for most jigs, that means two strums. Trying to superimpose a waltz rhythm with three strums will not work.

Martin

[Jim Broyles]

What Martin said except I'd say 6/8 has two pulses per measure. In strictest terms, it has six eighth-note beats but each group of three feels like one.

[mandocrucian]

Trying to superimpose a waltz rhythm with three strums will not work.

Actually, this acts as a syncopation for a jig. (And vice versa)

|==1=&=a=2=&=a=|== 6/8 (jig)
|==1=&=2=&=3=&=|== 3/4 (waltz)

There are various Mexican and central American instrumental dance tunes which alternate bars of 6/8 and 3/4:

|==1=&=e=2=&=e=|==1=&=2=&=3=&=|

A waltz, or a jig can be phrased with this rhythm for effect - This is a way to get comfortable shifting between the 2 beats to a bar and 3 beats to the bar. So you can morph into a bar of the "other time sig" momentaritly for syncopated effect.

Two measures of 6/8 jig gives you 12 eighth notes. Now a Swedish/Finnish polska (3/4) is three groups of four 16ths. If you decide to subdivide the 12 notes differently, a jig can be transformed into a polska, or a polska into a jig, with some interesting results. (You may decide to change a note here or there in the "new version" to phrase smoother in the other time sig.)

|==1=&=e=2=&=e|1=&=e=2=&=e=|== (6/8 jig)
|==1=a=&=e=2=a=&=e=3=a=&=e=|== (3/4 polska)

Incidentally, I actually reworked "The Irish Washerwoman" into a polska ("Pesunaisen Polska") and have an unreleased studio recording (from around '92 or '93) of this tune with Arto Järvelä playing fiddle on the track. I like the polska version more.

Additive rhythm is an often used device for syncopation, although you could also consider it a different time signature if it isn't over superimposed over a straight 2/4 or 4/4 groove that the backup maintains. Examples?: "Orange Blossom Special", "In The Mood", tons of ragtime tunes, and, (in 3/4) Dave Brubeck's "In A Raggy Waltz". All the Bo Diddley stuff using the Latin clave rhythms is additive rhythm.

Instead of 2/2 or 4/4 grouped as 2+2+2+2 or 4+4, it can be rhythmically grouped as 2+3+3 or 3+3+2, or even 3+2+3. Or |4 + 4 | 4 + 4 | becomes (two bars) |3+3+3+3 +4 | (OBS)

Play a measure of a reel in the same time duration of a measure of a jig, you get 8th note quadruplets. If you play a measure of a jig (6 equal duration notes per measure) against the rhythm of a reel, you have quarter note triplets. Nothing is quite as simple and one-dimensional as it may appear to be, because stuff can be recycled in different contexts for totally different effects.

Manipulation and overlaying different time sigs and subdivsions was the subject of a lengthy instructional article, "Developing Rhythmic Elasticity", in issue #21/Aug '92 of The Mandocrucian's Digest.

BTW: When I do pull the plug on the mando biz all the unsold MD back issues are destined for the shredder in order to recoup their inventory costs on the sched C for that year.)

Niles H

[danb]

If we're talking Irish jigs.. I switched from DUD DUD to DDU DDU after some years on the first pattern.

First off, the downbeat is on 1 & 4, and that's longer than the next 2 beats by a hair.

D DU D DU
1 23 4 56


Secondly, you want to be able to drop in triplets in one of two positions, either:
1) between the first 2 notes, so
DDU
becomes
DUD U

2) betwen the 2nd and 3rd notes, so
DDU
becomes
D UDU

The double downbeat base picking pattern makes the resulting 2 ornaments much easier to keep in the right time, and helps you speed your jigs up in the long run.

It's a fairly hard change to make once you train your hands on DUD DUD, but in my experience it makes keeping the "pulse" and correct beat much easier.

[JeffD]

It sounds to me like Bill's confusion arises from a perception that 6/8 is somehow "really" the same as 3/4. It isn't. Each measure in 6/8 has only two beats, with each beat played as a triplet (emphasis on the first note of the triplet). .

That is a good way to think about it, a 6/8 jig is like playing triplets in 2/4.

[JeffD]

If we're talking Irish jigs.. I switched from DUD DUD to DDU DDU after some years on the first pattern.

That is interesting. I guess I had heard of that, but misremembered it as DUU. One of my heroes of celtic music in the 80s (though I forget just now who) wrote an article on this (was it in Manodlin World News?) and I wrestled with it for a while. Your arguements in favor of DDU make a lot of sense.

I am going to look through my back issues of Mandolin World News to find the article. (Any excuse really.)

[EdSherry]

DanB -- Thanks for the suggestion. I used to play Dud Udu, then was persuaded to shift to Dud Dud. I'll have to check out Ddu Ddu and see how that works. A fine local Irish mando player (Marla Fibish) tried to teach me about the "right" way to play jig ornaments (triplets), which sounds similar to what you're proposing, but I confess it didn't stick. Maybe I'll figure it out eventually ...

[danb]

DanB -- Thanks for the suggestion. I used to play Dud Udu, then was persuaded to shift to Dud Dud. I'll have to check out Ddu Ddu and see how that works. A fine local Irish mando player (Marla Fibish) tried to teach me about the "right" way to play jig ornaments (triplets), which sounds similar to what you're proposing, but I confess it didn't stick. Maybe I'll figure it out eventually ...

Say hello to Marla for me I lived in the bay area from ~2000-2003, and would frequently play at Beckett's in Berkeley, or down at the Plough & Stars now & then.