Questions for those who have built a saga AM-10

[gmcnicol]

I'm new to this community yet already I have found some wonderful information on building the Saga AM-10 kit. Within the next few weeks, I'll be ordering one of these kits for myself, probably from IV's website. I do have a few questions, however!

First of all, knowing what you know now about building an AM-10, would you do things differently if you were to build another one?

Secondly, from my understanding of many of the posts regarding the AM-10, the supplied nut should be replaced with a better quality one. Bone nuts have been suggested as a replacement, but has anyone tried a metal nut? I play a bit of guitar and am a little disappointed that open strings and fretted strings have different qualities. I guess that I'm longing for a zero fret on my guitars! Anyway, would I be right in thinking that a metal, probably brass, nut would give me the sonic qualities I am hoping for?

Third question, and I'll completely understand if no-one has done this, is how well does the wood for the front and back of the mandolin respond to pyrography? I have some nice ideas that I'd like to 'burn' into the wood before lacquering it.

Final question is would it be a good idea to incorporate a pickup into the mandolin at the build stage, or is this just as easily accomplished afterwards?

I know, it's a lot of questions from a newbie, but hopefully they are good questions!

Looking forward to reading your replies,

Graham

[Paul Busman]

I don't know of a metal nut, but I'm thinking that there must be some reason mandolins don't have them.
As far as wood burning goes, try experimenting on the inside of the back and top in an unobtrusive place. The maple should be OK, but the spruce top may burn a bit too easily.

[Bill Snyder]

I have seen photos of an instrument with the pyrography done. Are you going to use sand to do it or wood burning tools?
FWIW here is a link to a mandolin that used a bit of woodburning but I don't think it is quite what you have in mind.

[mandolinstew]

I installed a Tusq nut on mine which I like.Also found when I opened the box that the back was one inch oversized,and the neck did not fit.This required more work which I was glad to do.I do wish I had tried a wood binding.

[bmac]

Initially you will receive a cheap plastic nut.... There is nothing wrong with these..... but of course you will have to adjust it for it to work well as you would have to with any new nut. It is not particularly difficult. There is no reason why you shouldn't use a zero fret but you understand you will need a nut of sorts behind it to hold the strings in position.... You might gain something but it probably won't be significant soundwise. Very few new mandolins come with a zero fret because there is so little to gain. But there is nothing wrong with experimenting. If you don't like the cheap plastic nut then change it to a more expensive plastic nut... You may feel better.

I have only one suggestion regarding the Saga kits.... be very cautious when sanding the top and sides that you dont mess up the binding channel. The channel will require some fine tuning and the cutting of it is sometimes a bit iffy. But that is part of the experience of fine tuning the kit. It is a good learning experience in my opinion and you will end up feeling much more confidence when thinking and talking about mandolins. I would also recommend getting the book on building a bluegrass mandolin... Very helpful when building and fine tuning your build. Take your time and you should do fine.

[Paul Busman]

I do wish I had tried a wood binding.

I did do a wood binding, and I wish I had chosen something other than Bloodwood which was very prone to splitting.
If I were to do it again, I'd thin the top a bit more for more resonance.

[gmcnicol]

Thanks all for the replies!

Paul Busman wrote: the spruce top may burn a bit too easily

That's a very good point and one I had not considered! I'll do a bit of research and testing on this before I try to do anything to the top.

Bill Snyder wrote: FWIW here is a link to a mandolin that used a bit of woodburning

That's a nice bit of work, thank you for the link! No, it isn't what I had in mind, but it's still very useful to see what othgers have done. I have a woodburning tool set, and the design I have in mind is what I would describe as a celtic design, featuring knotwork and suchlike.

Mandolinstew wrote :I installed a Tusq nut on mine which I like.

I'm not yet sure which kind of nut I'll put on it, as I do not know the technical ins and outs of this kind of thing.

bmac wrote: There is no reason why you shouldn't use a zero fret but you understand you will need a nut of sorts behind it to hold the strings in position

I think that I will go the zero fret route. My guitar "hero" is Brian May of Queen, who, of course, built his own guitar. That guitar features a zero fret, so... Well, I guess that his influence is as good a reason as any to do it! Now, if only I could play even a tenth as well as he does! lol

And yes, I'm going to get the build a bluegrass mandolin book with it. I figure that I need all the help I can get, but I'm loking forward to what will hopefully be an enjoyable build and a pleasant instrument to both look at and play.

Once again, thanks for your replies and suggestions,

Graham

[belbein]

I just finished my first build, which was an AM-10. I've since moved on to a more sophisticated build, an Octave Mandolin. I think the AM-10 was a good baby step.

There are a lot of people who can help you. For example, I can talk you through it. There's someone--a Britisher, I believe--who has a very nice instruction thing on the Internet. I'll see if I can find it and forward it. There's also a colleague on this site, whose name I don't remember, who has a lot of pix of her Saga build. I didn't have instructions with mine, so I had to rely on those folks and on Simonoff's book. The instructions here were way better than Simonoff, at least for my specific questions.

As for "pyrography," AKA "woodburning". I combined marquetry and pyrography and I liked the result. In fact, one of my "inlays" on the Saga needs a little something to define its lines a little more, and once I get the neck all squared away on the Octave, I'm going after that Saga inlay with a burner. I don't know why more people don't inlay with wood veneer, and why they don't add wood burning to "etch" it. I found woodburning to be a very nice graphic addition. I also did my label with woodburning, which I think looks very cool. I'll try to post some pictures later in the week, if you're interested.

Since you asked for advice, here's mine. Take it for what it's worth: Its worth nothing, because I know f***-all about building, having only completed one. But the experience is still fresh, and boy I do have opinions.

1. Build the hell out of that instrument. My Saga is sitting behind me, in front of my Gibson Flatiron. I'm only playing the Saga right now, and it sounds terrific. It taught me not only to build some parts of a mando, but also how to set up an instrument. In time a more sophisticated build will become my favorite, but my point is that if you put time and effort in, this kit will reward you more than you can ever expect.
2. Use it to learn building, finishing, and set up. Use it most of all to learn how to fix screw ups. I've always thought that that's the most important skill.
3. That spruce top ... well, it's not going to finish easily. They're splotchy as hell. I practiced a little on scraps and on swaths of the underside, and I wish to heck I'd done a full finish on the underside of the sound board just to learn how it was going to react. Maybe if I'd anticipated splotch I'd have done something Peter Max-ish. Or not.
4. Don't replace the nut. Use the plastic POS nut to learn how to adjust a nut and how to do a set up. Then, when you're feeling confident, replace it later with bone. (I have no opinion on "zero frets." I figure if God wanted mandolins to have no nuts ...)
5. Avoid hide glue. I know it's the Luthier's Choice. I think to become a Master Luthier you have to build a suspension bridge using only hide glue and spruce or something--and then tune the steps. I have a moderate amount of experience working with wood and glue in three dimensions and complex curves and ... I couldn't get the stuff to work. Seriously, I think it's an important skill, and I think it's going to be something I'm going to have to set a few weeks aside to work on. But it's not something I'm going to learn from building. The point is: there's no shame in using Titebond.
6. That "tuning the bars" and stuff? Apparently it's real, and apparently it can be done, and apparently it is done by everyone who's a luthier, but it seems that there's no real consensus about how to do it. There does seem to be a consensus that Simonoff's method is ... let's say not optimal. The best opinions I've seen here say: build it, "tune" it until it sounds good to your ear, stop doing it when it sounds less good, and just pay attention to what you learn to apply to the next instrument. I have a feeling it's kind of like hide glue: eventually we'll get it, but mostly by not getting it exactly right. It's asymptotic learning, maybe. But I can tell you from doing it in my ignorant method, that my Saga sounds great. (By the way, I DID use Simonoff's topographical maps for carving the top and bottom. It may be why this thing sounds so good. And that little convex finger plane is [to quote my wife] "so cuuuuute!")
7. If you're going to replace anything: replace the kerfing. It makes the Saga unreasonably difficult to assemble. Kerfing's cheap. It's easy to substitute (or even make your own).
8. Ask for advice. I have asked all sorts of stupid questions (and started a few discussions) and ALMOST never been flamed. This is a great group of people. No question is too elementary. One thing I've learned, though--post pix to illustrate your questions. It helps people understand what you're talking about.

Again, you can contact me any time, either publicly or privately. I'm glad to help.

[Bill Snyder]

Adding a zero fret to an already fretted board is may not be impossible but it is going to be a chore. The zero fret will have to go where the nut is supposed to be which means you are going to have to come up with a method to add a nut behind the zero fret. Also if you are going to use a zero fret the advantage of a bone nut disappears.

[Paul Busman]

There is a thread here somewhere about a replacement nut with a built in zero fret. Maybe someone here will know where that is. That would be your simplest option I think.

[gmcnicol]

Bill, What I was thinking about was gluing a piece of wood to the head where the nut would normally be and working from there. The piece of wood would be the same size and shape as the nut, except that it would be level with the fingerboard. It's going to be a big experiment, of course, and if it doesn't work, well, I'll just remove the wood and put in a nut instead.

[gmcnicol]

Paul, is this the thread you mentioned? http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...after-the-fact

kestrel's image on that thread is the way I shall go. Elegant and relatively easy to achieve. Sure, I might have to finesse the fret a little, but what a great way to learn even more about building a mandolin.

[Paul Busman]

Paul, is this the thread you mentioned? http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...after-the-fact

kestrel's image on that thread is the way I shall go. Elegant and relatively easy to achieve. Sure, I might have to finesse the fret a little, but what a great way to learn even more about building a mandolin.

No, that's not the one. Someone out there is selling a replacement nut with a built in zeroth fret. It may be Saga Music. I just tried to get to their website, but got timed out.

[fishtown]

I have experimented with metal nuts in the past and came to the conclusion they just sound like crap. On an electric guitar through a loud amp the crappy sound isn't as noticeable but acoustically it is. They sound thin and glassy sounding to me.

[bigskygirl]

Hi Graham, hope by now you are on your way to a completed AM-10. I really love mine and have alot of fun playing it.

If I built another what would I do different.......hmmmmmm....

I think mostly I would pay more attention to the tone bars and grading the top. Since this was the first time I ever built anything I really didn't know what I was doing and the Saga instructions are not all that great.

I suppose the bone nut may sound better and I may end up with one BC I'm going to file the supplied plastic nut at some point since the action is so high and I'll probably bolo that when I do it the first time. However, if I can just get the action a bit lower I think it would be ok with the original nut.

Also, I would take a bit more time to make sure the neck was flush with the top. My kit needed alot of sanding on the neck joint so it would fit and in the end it's off by just a hair but as I learned (there's that experience thing again) it makes a big difference in the action.

I don't know anything about zero frets or pyrography but it sounds cool!!

As for a pickup, I would do it during the build so it's easier to work with rather than the finished product.

Have fun, I may build another at some point. I've since done 2 more Saga kits a Les Paul and Telecaster that both needed alot of setup/intonation work. For me I was able to learn alot about setting up an instrument.