Bacon and Day mandolin on ebay

[Richard Singleton]

Have not seen one of these before:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Groton-B-D-Mando...item45f1653b61

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually you probably have, just not with that name on it. I'm going to hazard a guess that it's Chicago built by either Regal or Harmony.

[Richard Singleton]

You're right Mike, it does look a lot like the Regal mandos, funny they went to the trouble of putting Groton on the headstock instead of just B&D.

[MikeEdgerton]

Might have been a model name.

[Jim Garber]

B&D was headquartered in Groton, CT. I think many of their non-banjos were made by Regal, esp later 1930s or so.

[Mandoist]

It's not "Chicago built". It was indeed made by Fred Bacon at the Groton, CT plant (up on a hill above the Thames River, not far from Electric Boat Co.). I have only seen one of these, many years ago...and this may be that very mando. For all I know, it's the only one he made?

I own a "William K. Place" signed 1920's Bacon & Day mando (doesn't look like this at all.) I bought it from my 4th grade teacher in the 70's. It's got mean action, but still a cool mando...and very deep for such a small unit.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd have to see more than someone just saying that, that thing would lay right over the top of a dozen Chicago built models and all of the brand name banjo companies with the exception of Gibson ended up farming out mandolin building to other builders.

Take a look at this page from Mugwumps. Fred Bacon didn't even manufacture the banjos with his name on them. I seriously doubt that he suddenly took to building mandolins that were copies of those being built in Chicago. It looks like he was very good at outsourcing since it appears his company was built on outsourcing the building.

[Jim Garber]

There is also a difference between earlier Bacon instruments -- I have two mandolins: an Artist (like the Eastman Grisman clone) and an Amateur model as well as a Sultana tenor banjo. I have seen some of the later B&D instruments and they are definitely different from the earlier ones.

[brunello97]

This is a curious looking instrument in some ways. I wish their were more ebay photos to examine. It is hard to argue with Mike's assessment as it sort of looks Regal-y in many ways. But the thick pickguard, fretboard extension, curious bound headstock, compensated bridge seem out of the ordinary for the Regal-with-another-label clones commonly seen. It also looks deeper in section-though that is as likely due to the photo as anything. Of course all this could be custom-specs from Mr. Fred to the company (whichever.) Looks like it could be a fairly decent instrument.

Mick

[MikeEdgerton]

There were plenty of talented mandolin builders in the early years of the company that were based in and around the northeast. I'm going to guess that they were part of the suppliers as well. Getting back to the instrument at hand, it's pretty non-descript for a one off instrument, no binding (the stuff around the headstock may be painted, I can't tell). This isn't a grand design, it's the common teardrop. I suspect it's a decade earlier than the seller thinks it is. It's not a fine instrument by any standard I can see, and it looks just like all those other Chicago instruments. I would think that if someone was building something special they would have made it special. This looks pretty common. The only reason for this conversation is the label on the headstock. I'd love to know if it's inlaid or painted on.

Here's a source that actually lists a date when they started manufacturing banjos and a note that they still had another builder building for them as well. To be fair it appears they were manufacturing their higher end banjos by this time.

I'll also note that Hubert Pleijsier's Washburn book shows mandolins with the same headstock shape and the same shape on the fretboard extension (although not on the same instrument). That doesn't surprise me a whole lot as I'm sure these guys (no matter where they were located) dealt with the same suppliers and jobbers.

[brunello97]

No argument from me, Mike. I enjoy tracking these things to some extent. The ebay Groton, like Jim suggests, bears no resemblance to the higher end B+Ds I have in on file. The jobber theory is no doubt correct. I went through a multiple dozen Chicago flatbacks in my files without hitting a (near) match. An old Gretsch hits the closest. The curious thing is the depth of the body. I've owned a number of Regals/anonymous Chicago flatbacks and never seen one this deep. It looks 3/4-1" deeper than typical. (I don't think it is the photo, and it is not my eyes....) Maybe an early version is the right call.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

The only reason for this conversation is the label on the headstock. I'd love to know if it's inlaid or painted on.

I agree with you Mike, esp that it is not an especially special mandolin. Certainly not one of a kind.

Here is a photo of the headstock

[markd]

I am not certain about this mando, but I do know that many of the B&D labeled guitars were made by Regal. It is believed that Regal sent the basic instuments to them for finishing at the Groton plant. As an example, I have a Washburn guitar that was made by Regal in 1938 - and it is virtually identical to a B&D Senorita model from the same time era except for the very cool B&D fancy appointments and headstock inlay that were made and finished by the B&D folks in Groton. So if B&D bought guitars from Regal to finish in their own style, it would not be much of a stretch to think that they did the same thing with mandos. Regal is said to have had a policy of making and selling instruments under any name or label that you wanted, and with any features that you wanted, as long as you ordered at least 10 units. As a result, its very common to see many unknown or little known brand names attributed to Regal. Any corner music store could order mandos and guitars with their own name on them to sell as the house brand.

Mark

[MikeEdgerton]

A B&D branded Regal built guitar.

[Jim Garber]

I have some catalog pages from 1936 and 1938 with Regal and B&D mandolins. This Groton looks to be a less expensive version of a B&D Senorita or very close to a Regal style 117. I will try to scan some pics this evening.

BTW I am trying to get more details but it sound like this mandolin will need some restoration around the neck joint.

[jbalch]

I just found this mandolin at a local guitar shop. I'm seeking any additional information that might be available.

[Jim Garber]

Hmmmmm... I am trying to figure out if this Groton is the same one that was on eBay back in March of 2010. Here are a few more pics of that one. I see a blemish on the treble side of the top that looks very similar in position to the one that jbalch pictures. If so, there were some issues like a split neck joint that needed to be addressed. I wonder if there was some crack visible on this new find.

[jbalch]

I think the mandolin in your photo (from ebaY I assume) is the same one I have. Not only is that blemish in the right spot, but there is a small crack on the front side of the pickguard( beneath the fingerboard) and mine has the same white spot inside the sound hole. All of these things are visible in your photos.

There was no case with this mandolin when I found it in a small guitar shop here in middle TN. The shop owner is a friend. He said it was consigned and he knows the seller. I'll have to ask if it was purchased on ebaY.

The auction has been purged from ebaY. I'd appreciate any details you remember from the description.

BTW...the neck joint seems very stable. I don't know if it has been repaired. It doesn't seem like a problem to me.

[Jim Garber]

I guess my posting was a little confusing, John. What I meant was that your mandolin looks very similar to the one that originated this thread and which was sold on eBay in 2010. I just added some photos I took off the original eBay listing.

[jbalch]

I guess my posting was a little confusing, John. What I meant was that your mandolin looks very similar to the one that originated this thread and which was sold on eBay in 2010. I just added some photos I took off the original eBay listing.

I get it. But You know Jim...this really could be the same mandolin. As I mentioned there are three or four striking similarities.

Regardless. This is a cool little player. I'm pleased to have found it.

[jbalch]

[Jim Garber]

I never did post those catalog pics of the Senorita mandolins that I promised a few years back. So here it is. They look a bit fancier than John's but basically the same one. The top is a model 1 with mahogany back and sides. The bottom one is a model 2 with rosewood back and sides.

It looks like the only difference is the headstock and the pickguard.

[jbalch]

Thanks Jim. They do look very similar, Besides the peghead shape & pickguard, the Groton has no binding around the top or back.

On the Banjo Hangout, it was posted that Bob Carlin wrote about Regal-made mandolins marketed by The Bacon Banjo Co. Apparently he mentions the "Groton" models.

[Jim Garber]

I will look in Bob's book.

[Capt. E]

I owned a Bacon "Amateur" last year that I sold to Mr Grisman for his collection (see my avatar). Bacon did indeed make mandolins in the 1920's before he joined with Mr. Day. They made 3 models of increasing quality: in fact David Grisman's name is on an Eastman reproduction of their top model. Bacon and Day continued to sell mandolins under their name, but made by other makers for many years afterwards.